Bedtime - what a good game!

[nunheadmum]

Just realising what a good child DD no1 was. We moved DD no2 to a bed and to start with she was great. Then she started playing up with no1 so we split bedtimes. Now she's discovered the new game of getting out of bed at bedtime. I've been doing a sort of rapid return approach - and we're averaging about 15-20 returns and 60-90mins a night before she finally goes to sleep. It's not improving at all, over 5 nights now. She's not crying and fighting it until the very end - mostly she thinks it's a great game. She's a fairly savvy 26months. If she does complain she's saying 'That's not very nice Mummy!' and similarly constructive criticisms!

Thinking that it was maybe a separation anxiety thing I tried staying with her last night but that was just as bad, if not worse.....mummy has stayed to play, great!

I'm sure it's just an attention thing / not wanting to switch off from the fun of the day. But the lack of sleep is affecting her behaviour and of course, resulting in early mornings at the other end. (Not to mention waking in the night, shouting 'No, Mummy...not nice' and other such throw-backs).

I'm trying to get a kidsleep Bunny clock in the hope that it may help - I remember it had a good effect with my 1st but that clock has died.

But if that doesn't help, the only other option I can think of is putting her to bed, shutting the stairgate at the top of the stairs and leaving her to shout when she gets up. Not my preferred route - not that I struggle with tough love but it seems a little rough and I'm sure I'll end up having to go up to her which seems to defeat the purpose. Has anyone tried this?

The other option I thought of was maybe a story tape but I'm not sure if she's not too young to really listen to something like this. If anyone has done it, can you recommend good ones for that age?

I'm just getting really wound up over this which isn't good for me or my little tyke!

[pebbles]

Hi, our son was nearly 3 when we put him into his own bed and I firstly told him that if he ever got out of bed he would have to go back into his cot so cross fingers he still hasn't got out of bed however he too played that game and made us run up and down the stairs. Cleverly used the I need the loo trick so we would rush upstairs to take him as we had only just potty trained and although was wearing nappies in bed didn't want to ignore him if he asked but after a few weeks when we realised he was playing with us i'm afraid we played the tough love game and basically said to him one night that we wouldn't be up again once we said goodnight and we had our names screamed for about 20 mins and him saying he wasn't very happy however that was the only night and since then it has been silence.

One of those difficult decisions about coping with the screams but I felt he was old enough to talk if something was truly wrong.

Good luck. This parenting just keeps on throwing us curved balls doesn't it!!!

[nunheadmum]

Yes, we get the wee-wee trick too. She's potty trained and went almost straight to being dry at night too so with no nappies, we're scared a bit of ignoring it too. But that said, she has a potty in her room and can use it herself so we may need to ignore it once we know she's done a decent one before bed. We also get not letting me put her blanket on then as soon as I'm out the door shouting 'Blaaannnkkeeetttt' and then not able to settle without it on!

20 mins of shouting - I think I could cope with that! Although I do wonder just how much she can understand and reason at 26months i.e. that it's bedtime and we're not coming back because of that, not because we've abandonded you totally. She can understand plenty definitely in some circumstances - during the day I'd have no worries. But I sort of feel that at bedtimes she just can't switch off and almost can't control herself. But crying does seem to be the switch for her so maybe driving her to have a cry will actually help her switch off sooner.

Re the curved balls - I think my parenting is about as good as my baseball on those ones!

[womanofdulwich]

get the cot back. now. no need to have a bed until they are 3. they are old enough to understand that a bed is only if you stay in it all night.

[nunheadmum]

I suspect she'd climb out now! But I have considered trying it.

[womanofdulwich]

yes i think if you kind of made cot a threat and said that is where children sleep when they are not old enough, but when they are grown up and know to go to bed and stay there- star charts - big girl might light etc etc that should work ............my eldest did climb out when he was nearly 3 and tipped the cot over.............( he got a bed then)

[redjam]

A friend of mine's little boy (age 2) went through the same thing - he kept wandering about at night once he got his own bed, appearing downstairs or going into his sister's room and waking her up. Eventually my friend put a stairgate on the boy's bedroom door, and it seemed to do the trick, along with a bit of determined ignoring on his parents' parts. He still wandered about but he quickly realised it wasn't so much fun if he couldn't create mischief and didn't have an audience. His mum used to sometimes find him curled up asleep on the floor when she went up to check on him (on one memorable occasion in the wardrobe), but after a couple of weeks he stayed in his own bed every night.

The other idea is to think about reward charts (or conversely do the old Supernanny trick of taking away a favourite toy every night she messes about). I did a reward chart for my eldest daughter at around that age when she started getting up at the crack of dawn (I also used a bunny alarm clock to let her know what was a reasonable hour). I remember feeling a bit dubious that she was old enough to understand what a reward chart was, but actually I think the concept of rewards must be hotwired into children's brains at birth, as she totally got the concept of it immediately. Let's face it, if you say 'Do this and you get chocolate', you catch on to it pretty quickly. I'll worry about the future eating disorders at a later date...

[nunheadmum]

I did threaten to put her in her cot last night - rather half-heartedly though as I thought she may climb out / enjoy the opportunity to bounce.

I have thought of reward charts as she did respond the other day when big sis got a sticker for tidying up and she didn't. But not sure she'd remember enough to relate what she did last night to getting a star etc the following morning. I can see her making the early morning link more clearly. Has anyone done it that young for night time stuff?

[pebbles]

What has also worked amazingly for us is the grobag clock. When he goes down at night we say night night to the stars and reiterate that we won't see him until the sun is up. It doesn't work necessarily for the nighttime games but for the morning games. We're pretty lucky with his length of sleep however he had started waking about 30 mins earlier than normal and we started running to him at the first murmur cos we didn't want him to wake new born. however after a bit we decided to put new born (well 6 months old at this point) at the top of house so she woldn't wake up and said to him when we put him down we won't come to you until the clock is yellow (ie when it's time to get up) and we had 2 mornings of screaming (not crying) but screaming our names and then since then nothing. he has some books in his bed so i'm not saying he goes back to sleep but he now happily "reads" to himself until the clock is yellow.

I didn't use the sticker chart as I did for potty training and after a few days he was just a little bored by it - unfortunately smarties worked better for us with potty training!!!

[nunheadmum]

We've got a Groclock for our eldest but it doesn't seem to work with the youngest - she loves switching it on but ignores it in the morning. I'm hoping that the Bunny clock works better as it's easier to relate to maybe. (We tried the one with ears too but that was too noisy when she did sleep later and woke her.)

I think that sharing a room is part of the trouble in the morning - we jump too quick to stop her waking the eldest. If she'd just sleep past 6 I'd be happier to leave her but 5 is too early.

[Layla's Mum]

I would second the Groclock recommendation. Totally did the trick with my daughter. Coupled with the Sleep Fairy (I read about her in a sleep clinic book I bought in desparation). The Sleep Fairy visits the parents room every night and leaves a very cheap toy or sticker or lolly or whatever in a bag by the bed when the child complies with the rules (i.e. staying in bed and not calling out until the Groclock says its morning). The child comes into the parents room and collects the sleep fairy gift in the morning or the bag is empty depending on whether the child follows the rules. My daughter totally went with this and once she understood that failure meant no present she started following the rules every night. After about a month of her getting it right every night we phased it out (this was terrifying as we thought she would go back to her old ways! but she didn't!) by leaving the bag empty one night in three saying the fairy must have been busy and eventually leaving a note from the sleep fairy saying "Well done, you have done so well. I am now going to help some other children to get better at sleeping. I will tell the tooth fairy all about you and she will visit you soon." She totally went with it. Now she is older we say no television the following day if she comes in to us early but its a rare occasion now. Makes me look back at the endless sleepless nights and wonder why I put up with it for so long! By the way, in the beginning we also had to use the 'supernanny' technique of rapid return along with these other techniques but that only lasted a few nights once we had decided we were going to be super strict about the rules. Hope this helps.

[The Nappy Lady]

Nunheadmum, re the sharing a room - same here, my 2 love being together but I've split them for now because C still wakes between 5&6am whilst her sister will go much longer. I realised I was rushing in so she didn't wake O up......now we are imposing a stricter morning regime - basically telling her it's too early and leaving her in her cot. I'm too old to get up before 6am, and the sooner she sleeps til 7 the better.

LOVE the sleep fairy idea, may have to use that I think.

[nunheadmum]

Yes, I love the sleep fairy idea too - I can see that being used.

I'd love to be able to separate the kids but our spare room is now hubby's office too so unsuitable for youngest and I think the eldest would really struggle if we move her out of her bedroom next to us (which has always been her room) and to the spare back bedroom. It'd work if we could really make it her room but with regular visitors and hubby's stuff, that's not so practical. But if things continue as they are, I may need to bite the bullet and say tough, we need to get the youngest sorted.

Got bunny clock installed now and I thought it was going to work for bedtime. But after a few 5-10min lies before getting up, she was lying down less and looking cheekier each time she got up. So I shut the stairgate and left her to it. Didn't leave her too long (she was doing that 'I'm about to be sick' cough!) but after 2 more putting her back, she seems to have gone off. I'm hoping that she's got the message. And that we don't pay with numerous wakings in the night. Time will tell.

Thanks all for your thoughts though. Just knowing that it isn't just my kid (obviously due to my crap parenting skills) is a help!

[The Nappy Lady]

Good luck!

Forgot to say, with our first we just used a bog standard lamp on a timer an told her "when the light comes on you can come wake us up". Worked fine - from around 2.5 if IRC, and saved buying a bunny clock or similar. Saves a bit of money if you are on a tight budget.

Nunheadmum, could you have eldest in with you just while sorting the little one? Not ideal but maybe as a temporary measure. I can understand the issues around bedrooms.....oh for a loft conversion!

[nunheadmum]

Aarrgghh....just had youngest up 3 times + several shouts last night after the stressful bedtime. Fingers crossed it improves.

Yes Molly, good idea re the night light options. I read about a few simpler options but we're attached to bunny after last successes.

Having eldest in our room is an idea but worry that she's still get disturbed as we're through the wall from kids' bedroom. And wary that if we're all in next door room, no2 will have added incentive to get up to join us. Think I may just need to have a long talk to no1 and use the back room.

But first priority is the bedtime bit - I suspect if she goes down calmer at night, she'll sleep better and there's more chance of her staying asleep longer in the morning. Maybe not 7am but past 5am would be good! (It was 6.20 today so there's some benefit to a broken night!!)

Loft conversion would be good - 2 neighbours have done theirs recently, one with full ceiling lowering. I'm waiting to see the finished product before we decide if it's worth it. Having grown up in a 2up/2down, I appreciate I'm being rather spoiled complaining about the space in a Nunhead house!