Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Ah, I'd have to respectfully disagree there Sue -

> my only gripe with Bob getting the prize is that

> Laughing Len hasn't too many years left and they

> probably won't now give it to another songwriter

> for a decade or more.

>

> Now the courtroom is quiet, but who will confess.

> Is it true you betrayed us? The answer is Yes.

> Then read me the list of the crimes that are

> mine,

> I will ask for the mercy that you love to

> decline.

> And all the ladies go moist, and the judge has no

> choice,

> a singer must die for the lie in his voice.

> And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty,

> you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty.

> Your vision is right, my vision is wrong,

> I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.

Yeh, fair enough, I think I was thinking more of his actual poetry rather than song lyrics.

I was bought a book of it one Christmas. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood for it.

[rendelharris]

Sue Wrote:

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> Yeh, fair enough, I think I was thinking more of

> his actual poetry rather than song lyrics.

>

> I was bought a book of it one Christmas. Maybe I

> just wasn't in the mood for it.

Oh God yeah, agree with that - I've got three volumes of it here, none of which have been looked at more than once! Definitely only flowered into genius when he picked up the guitar.

[Otta]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> A poem must convey everything just by words.

>

> The magic, indefinable element of a song is the

> symbiosis of words and music.

>

> IMO a song is a song and poetry is poetry - and

> the most successful forms of each are not

> interchangeable simply by adding music or by

> taking it away.

Totally agree with this. He's a great great song writer (that ruins his own songs by insisting on singing them), but I think they could have found a million more deserving writers.

And it's not like his ego needs massaging any more.

[camberwell70]

He insists on singing his own songs! OMG!!

Never found the man egotistical but wouldnt blame him if he was.

[rendelharris]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> A poem must convey everything just by words.

>

> The magic, indefinable element of a song is the

> symbiosis of words and music.

>

> IMO a song is a song and poetry is poetry - and

> the most successful forms of each are not

> interchangeable simply by adding music or by

> taking it away.

By the same logic Shakespeare (had he not written the sonnets etc) couldn't have won a Nobel as his words are written to be spoken by actors? Is drama not interchangeable with poetry, i.e. is it susceptible of standing alone on the written page? Then why not a song lyric?

[Otta]

Er, that is not the same logic at all.

And if Shakespeare's words had been presented like this at the time, I suspect he wouldn't have been remembered so well

 

[Otta]

camberwell70 Wrote:

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> He insists on singing his own songs! OMG!!

I wasn't being entirely serious when I said that.

But I do find his voice hideous.

[Otta]

These are the lyrics to my favourite Dylan penned song

"You speak to me in sign language

As I'm eating a sandwich in a small cafe

At a quarter to three

But I can't respond to your sign language

You're taking advantage, bringing me down

Can't you make any sound?

It was there by the bakery, surrounded by fakery

This is my story, still I'm still there

Does she know I still care?

Link Wray was playing on a jukebox, I was paying

For the words I was saying, so misunderstood

He didn't do me no good

You speak to me in sign language

As I'm eating a sandwich in a small cafe

At a quarter to three

But I can't respond to your sign language

You're taking advantage, bringing me down

Can't you make any sound?"

Now personally reading those words "dry" does nothing for me. But when I listen to the song...

 

[Jah Lush]

Which just goes to show your paucity of knowledge of Bob Dylan. Not the best of any of his lyrics by far, which is probably why he gave the song to Eric.

Here's Bob's lyrics to one of my favourite songs of his which I mentioned on this thread six years ago. This song for me could easily be a poem and in my opinion a hymn too.

EVERY GRAIN OF SAND

In the time of my confession, in the hour of my deepest need

When the pool of tears beneath my feet flood every newborn seed

There?s a dyin? voice within me reaching out somewhere

Toiling in the danger and in the morals of despair

Don?t have the inclination to look back on any mistake

Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break

In the fury of the moment I can see the Master?s hand

In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand

Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear

Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer

The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way

To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay

I gaze into the doorway of temptation?s angry flame

And every time I pass that way I always hear my name

Then onward in my journey I come to understand

That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand

I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night

In the violence of a summer?s dream, in the chill of a wintry light

In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space

In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face

I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea

Sometimes I turn, there?s someone there, other times it?s only me

I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man

Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand.

https://vimeo.com/61822795

[rendelharris]

That's the righteous stuff Jah, one of my top ten - I always regard it as linked to The Girl From the Red River Shore for some reason.

[rendelharris]

Otta, I can't really debate the point I made with you, much as I'd like to, as "Er, that is not the same logic at all" doesn't give me much of a clue as to why you disagree.

But saying his voice is hideous, while clearly a personal opinion you're very much entitled to, I think misses the point. Sure, his voice isn't a thing of beauty, but it's the perfect voice for his songs, just as Bowie's, or Tom Waits', or Robert Johnson's is for theirs. While I enjoy cover versions of Dylan (I grew up in the '70s with my old man playing Joan Baez covers of his songs incessantly before I even knew who Dylan was) for sheer soul it has to be the man himself for me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one! Great to have a chance to talk about him though, too often when I start ranting about Bob my friends tend to move in the general direction of away, possibly understandably.

Night all.

[*Bob*]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> By the same logic Shakespeare (had he not written

> the sonnets etc) couldn't have won a Nobel as his

> words are written to be spoken by actors? Is

> drama not interchangeable with poetry, i.e. is it

> susceptible of standing alone on the written page?

> Then why not a song lyric?

I make no judgement on the awarding of the prize, watevs. It's just my opinion on song, which IMO is absolutely distinct from any other form of written or spoken word. A song, for me, is a magical (yes, Mick - magical I say) intertwining of words with melody, harmony - and sound / production.

This combination is why it's possible for the same half dozen chords to be set to the same dozen notes and - when combined with words - sound infinitely different every time. But it's the combination that counts, that's where the magic happens.

I love lyrics but I have no interest in reading them as some kind of standalone element outside of the aforementioned magical combo. To me, that defeats the purpose of what a song is.

[rendelharris]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > By the same logic Shakespeare (had he not

> written

> > the sonnets etc) couldn't have won a Nobel as

> his

> > words are written to be spoken by actors? Is

> > drama not interchangeable with poetry, i.e. is

> it

> > susceptible of standing alone on the written

> page?

> > Then why not a song lyric?

>

> I make no judgement on the awarding of the prize,

> watevs. It's just my opinion on song, which IMO is

> absolutely distinct from any other form of written

> or spoken word. A song, for me, is a magical (yes,

> Mick - magical I say) intertwining of words with

> melody, harmony - and sound / production.

>

> This combination is why it's possible for the same

> half dozen chords to be set to the same dozen

> notes and - when combined with words - sound

> infinitely different every time. But it's the

> combination that counts, that's where the magic

> happens.

>

> I love lyrics but I have no interest in reading

> them as some kind of standalone element outside of

> the aforementioned magical combo. To me, that

> defeats the purpose of what a song is.

Having said good night...*Bob* we're singing(!) from the same hymn sheet, I would only listen to Dylan's lyrics, not read them - I do have his collected lyrics but they're only really a source of reference (and hundreds of ballsaching poor guitar renditions). The point I was trying to make, probably badly, is that many forms of "literature" require more than just the words on the page - when Harold Pinter won the Nobel, for example, he clearly didn't win for what his words are when read by one person alone in a room, he won for the effect they have when performed on stage. Same for songs is all I'm saying, I agree it's not words plus music, it's words times music, but when it's Dylan we are in the hands of a poet, just for his wonderful words. The fact that they're set to such perfect music makes them a thousand times more powerful...all great poetry is made to be read aloud, it's only with the advent of cheap print (and poor overhyped poets who neither scan nor rhyme) that we've forgotten that tradition. Poetry and song have been inextricably linked throughout the history of human culture - e.g. Homer - all great poems are songs and all great songs are poems.

On which poorly expressed note, now I really must go to bed!

[Otta]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Otta, I can't really debate the point I made with

> you, much as I'd like to, as "Er, that is not the

> same logic at all" doesn't give me much of a clue

> as to why you disagree.

I just meant that in my opinion you can't compare the setting of lyrics to music, with the reading of a poem by an actor. Two completely different things. So I disagree that if you follow *bob*'s logic then Shakespeare couldn't have won.

And Jah, yeah those are nice lyrics. But that's what they are, lyrics with a good rhyme. If you see that as great poetry, then we disagree on what makes great poetry. Not that I'm a poetry buff by any stretch.

My other half loves Dylan and thinks he's a bit of a genius. As I say, I rate him as an amazing songwriter and social commentator at a time of great change. But I just never enjoyed listening to him.

[Jah Lush]

So not a Dylan buff or a poetry buff. Your wife has far superior taste to you.

[*Bob*]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> Here's Bob's lyrics to one of my favourite songs

> of his which I mentioned on this thread six years

> ago. This song for me could easily be a poem and

> in my opinion a hymn too.

>

> EVERY GRAIN OF SAND

This Dylan 'pick' illustrates my issue with a fair bit of Bob. It's all about the lyric while everything else going on is - IMO - is pretty ordinary. I can't forgive underwhelming music on account of lyrics, no matter how good they might be. It's not enough for me to enjoy listening to.

On a general note, if great lyrics are poetry, how come so little actual poetry is set to music? The answer is that poems very rarely work successfully as songs.

Lyrics can be poe'tic', but are not poetry. Moreover, lyrics which are actually po'ems' usually don't make for very good songs - unless you place so much emphasis on the lyric (as in the above track).

All subjective of course etc etc

Are the pubs open yet?

[first mate]

Think Joni Mitchell possibly his equal lyrically and his superior musically.

[first mate]

Many of Shakespeare's soliloquies and monologues it might be argued stand alone as great works of art and literature- Jacque in As You Like It "All the world's a stage; Portia in the Merchant of Venice "The quality of mercy"; Hamlet "To be or not to be" just for starters...

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *Bob* Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A poem must convey everything just by words.

> >

> > The magic, indefinable element of a song is the

> > symbiosis of words and music.

> >

> > IMO a song is a song and poetry is poetry - and

> > the most successful forms of each are not

> > interchangeable simply by adding music or by

> > taking it away.

>

> By the same logic Shakespeare (had he not written

> the sonnets etc) couldn't have won a Nobel as his

> words are written to be spoken by actors? Is

> drama not interchangeable with poetry, i.e. is it

> susceptible of standing alone on the written page?

> Then why not a song lyric?

[Otta]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So not a Dylan buff or a poetry buff. Your wife

> has far superior taste to you.

Not being a poetry buff doesn't mean that I don't enjoy any poetry. I just don't claim to be an expert.

And I am more than happy not to be a Dylan buff.

But yes my wife has absolutely fantastic taste. Good of you to point it out.

[Sue]

Good thing we're not all deciding on the Nobel prize winners, eh?

:)

[DulwichFox]

I think the prize was meant for Dylan Thomas but someone got their wires crossed.. :)

Foxy

[titch juicy]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I think the prize was meant for Dylan Thomas but

> someone got their wires crossed.. :)

>

> Foxy

You may be alluding to it, or not, so in case you're not, he changed his surname to Dylan because of Dylan Thomas

[Jah Lush]

Some people paying their respects to Dylan on winning his prize.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/13/dylan-towers-over-everyone-salman-rushdie-kate-tempest-and-more-pay-tribute-to-bob-dylan