Are there any speed cameras or speed bumps in/0n Barry road??

[Delainie]

Just wondering, as I do drive through it , I just can't remember?

[James Barber]

No permanent fixed cameras. Some occasional hand held Police speed gun operations.

Bumps. A couple of raised treatments about junction.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Delainie

This made me giggle, are you planning on speeding or have you been speeding, hence the question?

[capt_birdseye]

James Barber, are there any plans to do anything about the Barry Road/Underhill Road junction? Problems seem to me:

- Traffic constantly backing up on both sides of Underhill.

- Hard to see out from Underhill (Friern Rd side) onto Barry Road as there are usually Church Minibuses blocking the sight-lines.

- Difficult for people to cross Underhill at peak times due to volume of traffic crossing or turning in to Barry Rd.

- I know of several pedestrians who have had near misses from cars turning right out of Underhill (Friern Rd side) who have not realised the lights at the crossing were red.

Thanks!

[Delainie]

Yes , Theartfuldogger,I did actually think I sounded a little dodgy!

James Barber- do you not think there should be speed cameras as it is a very long road and I've noticed many speeding cars. I'm surprised there hasn't been any incidents involving pedestrians. Who decides whether a road should have speed cameras?

[Sally Eva]

One of the community councils (dulwich?) did a community speed watch operation there http://communityspeedwatch.co.uk

This showed high speeds which is what I am sure we would all expect. The police however were surprised. I guess that if you drive around in a police car the traffic becomes well behaved for a short distance around you and driver curb their speeds etc.

The speed limit on this road would be 20mph. If you are a cyclist the safe alternative is Friern Road (the next uphill road to the south of Barry Road. Another route up (for cyclists) is via Landells Road.

[Charlie Smith]

I have carried out three speed gun sessions with PCSO's present on Barry Road this year. We all wear high visibility jackets and do not jump out behind parked vehicles at the last moment. The last two hour session was on the 18th of August at the junction of Underhill Road at five pm. The speed limit for Barry Road is 20 mph. Any vehicle doing 26 mph or above is logged. During this two hour session 49 vehicles were recorded over 26 mph and one driver was logged at 49 mph. All of these drivers will be written to about their driving behaviour. If any of these drivers are caught speeding again in the future they will probably face a penalty. During this session some local people living in the road came over to say how dangerous this junction was and how they would like some remedy carried out. I know myself what this junction is like having seen a motorcyclist underneath a P13 bus one evening last winter. I have stood at the junction and have seen a number of near misses when vehicles try to edge out from Underhill Road in to Barry Road. I did persuade the owner of two mini busses to park a few metres further on to allow more visibility for drivers.

Barry Road is in my opinion one of the fastest roads in East Dulwich. There is a now defunct illuminated sign near the junction with Goodrich Road. I am told that studies have shown that illuminated signs have little long term effect on drivers. I am not so sure about this. I would like to use some Cleaner, Green, Safer funds to carry out a survey of Barry Road and in particular the Underhill Road Junction.

I know there a some people who think 20 mph does not work or is dangerous or is impossible to drive. I think I may have said this before, but a person struck by a vehicle travelling at 20 mph is less likely to be killed than a person struck by a vehicle travelling at 30 mph and above. If we can save at least one life, then I think we may have done a service to the community.

The next speed gun/Roadwatch session will be on Barry Road at the Junction with Upland Road on Monday the 17th of October between 5 and 7 pm. You are welcome to come along and have a look how it's done.

Yours Sincerely

Councillor Charlie Smith

East Dulwich Ward Member

[rjsmall]

Charlie Smith Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> During this two

> hour session 49 vehicles were recorded over 26 mph

> and one driver was logged at 49 mph. All of these

> drivers will be written to about their driving

> behaviour.

Why weren't the details of the speeders passed on to the police? I doubt a person who thinks it is okay to do over twice the speed limit is going to take much notice of a letter.

[sheff]

The police (usually PCSOs) will have been with Charlie when they did monitoring.

The police on site, and the volunteers take the reg, speed, make and model of the car.

The letter does then come from the police. However it will only be a warning, but held on file such that a further speeding offence will be looked on more severely.

rjsmall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Charlie Smith Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > During this two

> > hour session 49 vehicles were recorded over 26

> mph

> > and one driver was logged at 49 mph. All of

> these

> > drivers will be written to about their driving

> > behaviour.

>

> Why weren't the details of the speeders passed on

> to the police? I doubt a person who thinks it is

> okay to do over twice the speed limit is going to

> take much notice of a letter.

[spider69]

What is the speed limit on Barry Road?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

20mph

[kford]

Every year this debate comes up.

Just remove the traffic light Pelican crossings and replace them with simple table-top Zebra crossings, like on Peckham Rye.

Those green traffic lights give a false sense of priority for drivers, some of whom confuse them for junction lights, so speed up to try and 'beat' them.

[Burbage]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 20mph

I think that's the problem. Years ago, the Department for Transport was persuaded by ACPO that 20mph zones should be self-policing, and as it cost them no effort or thought to make it so, so it was made. In consequence, until enough deaths and injuries pile up to justify further action, enforcement of speed limits will be optional, intermittent and probably voluntary.

The irony is that a blanket 20mph limit was intended to allow - by reducing the number of arguable alternatives - enforcement by average-speed cameras, removing the need for anyone to hire expensive people to do actual work. But, despite the potential savings, it seems it was cheaper still just to do nothing at all.

So Cllr Smith's news, assuming he isn't just teasing us, that there's a real possibility we might get not only a survey but also the grumpy-faced illuminations restored, is something really positive we can cling to as the nights draw in. Although, as he admits, there is some debate as to whether they will have any effect, they certainly make it look as if something's being done, and that's surely more than we have any right to expect.

[Delainie]

Random hand held speed guns are not the answer. I don't understand why there are no permanent speed cameras. I am a driver and it really p's me when I'm being tailgated to go faster on Barry road. I don't take any notice, however nervous people can get worried into going faster. Very long road, idiots putting their foot down, nothing happening to stop them. Numerous cats killed on Barry road too. Can't wait for the day when all cars drive without relying on people and then hopefully computers will abide by speed limits!!

[rch]

I put in a CGS bid for a Smiley SID (Speed Indication Device) for Barry Rd last year, but it wasn't approved... I was thinking of putting in another bid this year, as I agree with Charlie that the "official" views that the SIDs aren't very effective over time aren't necessarily in keeping with my observations, as I think the one on Herne Hill is still effective. Maybe cllrs could condition that a speed survey could be part of the approval?

The problems with Barry Road are complex because of road layout issues as well as it being a TfL bus route, so implementing speed cameras would be difficult. In the first instance, there needs to be better notification that the road is 20mph because the markings are so vague, otherwise the issuing of tickets can be disputed.

Before we started the Roadwatch scheme, our local SNT police did some sessions on Barry where they actually stopped drivers over the limit to issue a verbal warning... but, in many cases, drivers didn't appear to even realise that the road was 20mph now.

Therefore, a Smiley SID or two would definitely be a useful way of increasing awareness with a view towards issuing tickets as well as "organically" slowing traffic speed down...

[matthew1]

Hi rch

Why is it a problem to have speed cameras on barry road and make the speed limit more obvious?

The main issue with the road is that is very long and straight and quite simply is asking for speed. Unless some strong action is taken I.e proper controls - speed cameras, fines etc you will struggle to slow the traffic. I walk this road every day and am shocked at the speeds cars and motorbikes get to and the levels of overtaking.

James barber - is it a funding issue to get speed cameras installed or something else stopping this?

[rjsmall]

I don't agree that the markings of the speed limit are vague - they are sign-posted and painted on the road plus there are banners in the borough saying that the limit in Southwark is 20mph. I also don't see how it being a TfL bus route makes a difference - are buses not expected to obey speed limits?

[Sally Eva]

The bus route doesn't make a difference. Westward Hill is a bus route as is Peckham Rye on the west side. Both are 20mph and have 20mph speed cameras. The one on Westward Hill has a camera in it and buses palpably slow down when going through it (and then speed up again).

Buses frequently don't obey speed limits but they are not exempt. The need to reduce speeds is well-known but efforts to do it are met with cries about "the war on the motorist". Those wanting reduced speeds need to be equally vocal.

[intexasatthe moment]

I imagine that the difficulties in relation to Barry Rd being a LT route are to do with that involving another layer of bureaucracy and negotiation. But I could be wrong .

[rch]

Yes, this is a definite layer of complexity, intexas. Barry Road is split between two council wards, so you need to get two sets of councillors to agree, then you need to get highways to agree, before you could even get to the TfL level.

Quick random bullet points, to avoid typing all day...

Speed cameras tend to get their power supply from the same source that supplies street lights, which means you need to find a street light in the right place to catch speeding. This could get tricky since the council increased the distances between the street lights some years ago, to save money.

Plus, Barry is a long road with lots of bus stops, so the speeding comes and goes in different locations at different times of the day... so, you'd probably need 4-6 cameras to cover the distance in both directions (we actually measure uphill traffic on the Roadwatch sessions)... which, at ?20k per camera, could get expensive. I don't think you can use average speed cameras because of the stopping and going.

The old style cameras couldn't measure 20mph but now the more modern GATSO ones do, albeit they are probably set at 26mph to meet ACPO criteria.

I think the camera on the west side of Peckham Rye is in the short bit along the parade of shops between East Dulwich Rd and Rye Lane, I don't think it's all along Peckham Rye? Am curious if it's a GATSO camera, will try to check.

Even more complications are down to the fact that these studies to even assess the situation are now contracted out, which adds extra cost to any project.

So, Charlie is right... in the first instance, a CGS bid to fund a traffic assessment should be made. But, because of the expense of the speed cameras, a Smiley SID could be the first level of response, which would also need connecting to a street light supply in the right place, hence the highways officers aversion to them. Alternatively, officers tend to try to address the problems "organically"... the best organic means of traffic calming are the pedestrian islands, which serve multiple purposes, but this will take out parking spaces, so residents tend to object. On the other hand, there are some logistical layout issues which should probably get looked at - the junction at Barry and Upland, for instance. Plus some of the build-outs that were implemented a few years ago need looking at.

I understand that locals feel that the road is adequately marked, but this route is used by other commuters who aren't familiar with it... from memory, one speeder stopped by the police was from Bromley and was completely unaware of the 20mph markers, which could be used to dispute the fine.

I also agree that residents need to be more vocal - I've been helping out as residents ask me, as I understand the protocol (I set up the Roadwatch Scheme at Barry, which is also doing sessions on Lordship Lane), but I've tried unsuccessfully to get a residents committee together to take this forward.

The best way forwards is to get a petition together and ask for a community council deputation... constitutionally, you need 250 signatures in order to request for the CC to move to address the petition concerns. This will require a significant amount of work.

Plus, you can formally register to join the Roadwatch sessions, but most of the people I've emailed over the past year are too busy with work and families and have dropped out.

[treehugger]

There are two speed signs (the ones that light up if you are going to fast) outside number 17 Barry road. One is right in front of the other; neither has worked for years.

[cazzyr]

I have lived in Barry Road environs for over 20 years and did the speed check with Charlie last year. The road is perilous and I am astounded every day by the speed of drivers. The crossing at Barry parade of shops is a joke in that cars fly tbrough amber and green lights. It needs urgent attention.

[Charlie Smith]

I did another speed gun session on Monday evening until the heavens opened and we got soaked to the skin. What we did find in the hour and a quarter that we were there was that there are still drivers who exceed the speed limit. The road was relatively quiet on Monday evening. We clocked about two dozen drivers doing 26 mph and above.I did log a vehicle doing 49 mph which is way too fast. We will have to look at a number of options which could include illuminated signs.

Yours Sincerely

Councillor Charlie Smith

East Dulwich Ward Labour Member

[rch]

I'm glad to hear that you attended the Roadwatch Session on Monday, Charlie, because I had to cancel in the morning due to the flu... and regulations state that no stats can be formally recorded unless at least one registered volunteer is participating.

The PC confirmed to me that in an hour and a quarter, there were 26 vehicles speeding over 26mph, including one at 49mph. She also confirmed that Barry Road is one of the worst hotspots on their list, so we will hopefully have the Roadwatch support in trying to at least get a survey done.

I'll put in another CGS bid, just to cover that option as well.

[rch]

Hi Treehugger... I'm aware of those signs, highways officers have been promising to have them removed for years. I think they are technically in Peckham Rye ward, but I'll go back and double check. On the other hand, if they are still connected to the electrics, then maybe a Smiley SID could replace them at a more reasonable cost?

caz, are you talking about the signalled pedestrian crossing just south of Upland Road? This location is completely dysfunctional and causes a lot of the speeding problems that we are measuring just to the north of Upland.

However, the location of the crossing is in Peckham Rye ward (Upland Rd is actually the ward boundary), so maybe we can get Charlie to update those councillors on what we're trying to do in ED ward?

On the other hand, in my experience, highway legislation is dramatically counterintuitive to how Human Beings use crossings... we're having an insane saga at the junction of Lordship and Melbourne because highways implemented a stupidly expensive signalled pedestrian crossing in a location that pedestrians don't want to use to cross to the bus stop, so they run in front of oncoming traffic instead.

I've been trying for several years to get the bus stop moved closer to the crossing, or vice versa, to no avail, so I can sympathise with the saga on Barry. I actually cringe when I watch the manoeuvres during the Roadwatch sessions...