Sleep rant

[Ruth_Baldock]

I know we have a lot of talk about sleep/naps, and everyone is probably sick of me and my sleep woes by now, but I feel a rant/pity party coming on.

My son is now almost 8 months old,and although he HAS slept through before, although sporadically, he doesn't anymore. He used to nap well in the day but now even a bus ride or car ride or walk in the sling doesn't help, and neither does rocking, shushing, patting or breastfeeding to the point of him being comatose (used to work a treat from 1-4 months). Yesterday he was awake ALL day (8.30-5pm) save a few minutes on my lap around 3 which isn't unusual. Then he slept from 7pm-8pm and was awake and full of beans till 11pm. This is the norm for us and now I am sick of it. I'm going back to work in 3 weeks and don't know how I can survive like this anymore. We DID try sleep training, but he seems to be the only baby in the world it didn't work on, and 11 days of him crying for 2+ hours every night made it enough for me to give up. When he's awake, he's not hungry or wet or ill, he's just...awake. The ONLY thing that gets him to settle from 7-7 is when I'm not around at night (I had an overnight stay in hospital recently and he did it then...grrr)

I am now seriously considering taking out a bank loan to pay for a sleep expert, me and my husband are THAT desperate.

Wah wah wah...feel v sorry for self :( I really, really hope he won't be one of those kids who doesn't sleep through till they're 3/4/5+ D:

[GinaG3]

My daughter started sleeping through all night at 16 months she still breastfeeds to sleep now. We cannot break this cycle. At 8 months she sounds like exactly the same baby as your boy. The really late nap at around bedtime was a nightmare then not going to bed until sometimes as late 12-1am. We ended up waking her up super early regardless of whether she was in bed really late the night before. At 6-7am she would normally wake for a feed but I would try and not let her fall asleep again and get up with her instead, very early mornings but they worked. She would then have her nap by 11 at a push (being reluctant) latest she would nap is 2pm, this would be a hour long nap and then she would become flat out desperate for sleep around 9pm. This worked really well for us getting her in a 'sort of' routine. Then at 14 months we made the even meal later by 1 hour and now she sleeps through without a single sound. Her tummy must be fuller for longer at night.

There is always light at the end of the tunnel, we struggled for 14 months to get where we are now, it was a horrible time, sleep deprivation leads to more stress of the situation I think.

BTW - My daughter had to have a nap a day to realize bedtime was bedtime and not a nap. If she didnt nap during the day she would nap at bedtime. I would sit there and breastfed rocking, singing, swaying anything, eventually she would fall asleep even if it took 2 hours of dedication.

Wishing you lots of luck..

[Ruth_Baldock]

Thanks for this. Reading back over what I wrote, it DOES sort of seem like he sees his 'bedtime' as a nap. I've been toying with the idea of getting him up at 7am for a while now, but always put it off because I'm so tired (that old chestnut). But I've GOT to give it a go!

[supergolden88]

Oh dear - I really feel for you it sounds very tough! My daughter did not sleep through until we sleep trained her at 13months - up till then it was up 2-4 times a night and I was a wreck.

I know you said you did sleep training but can you go into it a bit more? I did it early on and it did not work and only when got hold of "Solve your child's sleep problem" and read through it did I feel ready to do it properly. As long as baby eats properly and is not sick etc it should work.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Solve-Your-Childs-Sleep-Problems/dp/1405319674/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281440301&sr=8-2

Dont ask me why it's selling for so much money - maybe it's out of print? Maybe sleep is priceless? In any case you can borrow my copy if you want (but I will need it back as am expecting baby no2 in October!)

If you go to Channel 4oD you can watch "Can't sleep" doc (someone on forum mentioned it I watched it yesterday. Two supposedly opposing experts are solving sleep issues. But when it really comes down to it they are both sleep training)

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/who-knows-best/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1

Best of luck - it will get better!

[Ruth_Baldock]

I watched it last week, made for very interesting viewing I thought! Thing is, we've tried both approaches with Baby Baldock but he is so BLOODY stubborn that nothing works...at least not yet. As GinaG3 mentioned, it may very well be a case of adjusting all his timings and keeping my fingers crossed.

Thankyou for the offer to lend me your Sleep book, but we've got a lot of amazon vouchers after they made a pigs-ear out of a huge order of ours a few months back...and now I know what they'll be spent on!

[supergolden88]

No way should you spend ?55 on a book though no matter how good it is. Look for other editions/on other websites

I think you need to bring the daytime naps to a consistent (not too late) rhythm and then tackle nights. Let us know how it goes...

[Moos]

Agree with others re: daytime sleep being the key to night-time sleep - and I have so, so much sympathy for the 'I'm so tired I can't possibly invest any extra energy in sleep training' feeling. I remember it so well, and my heart goes out to you.

Investing in a sleep expert who can help you - one who is sympathetic to your parenting style - sounds like a really good plan, and getting any and all help you can from friends and family is also a good idea.

Sorry not much new advice but lots of sympathy!

[Ruth_Baldock]

Thanks, Moos, it's nice that others feel for me and don't think I'm making a fuss about nothing, as certain relatives have eluded to- lots of 'You're a Mum, so what do you expect?' etc.

I sound stupid saying this, but I'm going away to Babington House, sans child, for my birthday in 3 weeks and I will fully admit looking forward to getting the chance to have a lovely meal uninterrupted and being able to SLEEP uninterrupted than I am about the actual trip. How sad is that?!

Almost definitely going to get a sleep expert in if sleep doesn't improve, my husband and I are looking into our financial options as we speak. The ironic thing is that a very good friend from school worked on that sleep documentary and asked if I wanted to be a part of it, but as it focused on toddlers, my sleep evading infant didn't match the criteria!

[GinaG3]

I would seriously give sleep training a go again before paying for someones services. I was getting barely any sleep but managed to sleep train regardless, of course this meant me catching about 3 hours sleep a night for 2 weeks, but it was sooo worth it. Daughter still wont sleep for a 'full 12 hour' nights sleep but will sleep 8-9 hours solid thats great with me.

I would definitely try (my devised plan);

- Waking at 6-7am

- Persist with nap around mid-day, try relaxing together, singing or books were great with my daughter (beforehand, great! Nice to wake from nap for a spot of lunch)

- Try a bedtime routine if you haven't already we did dinner at 6pm, in the night garden, then bath (every other day), massage, pyjama then reading books or something calming

We found this continued cycle for 2 weeks a miracle. It was really hard work, she even had a few bad teething nights during 'training' but stuck at the routine really well. So proud. Then came the battle to do this in her own cot, but that was a breeze a few nights of putting down, waking up, putting down, waking up but we did it in just a few nights.

[canadianlisa]

Hi -

I recently (2-3 months ago) bought Solve you child's sleep problems' from Amazon and it was around ?12, not ?55. It is a worthwhile book to read and although it can be a bit tough in parts it is very informative generally and IMHO made a lot more sense than some of the others. It is also something that you can refer back as your boy gets older.

We were having real difficulty with our daughter and sleeping. I have briefly posted about it on here before but basically she would go to sleep fine at 7 p.m. but then wake for hours in the middle of the night and would not settle back down. She would often be up fussing and crying from 1- 4 a.m. Her naps were also short and erratic.

To be honest I was not crazy on sleep training but I was the one doing most of the wake ups and was at breaking point. I was starting to feel slightly manic and physically sick from it all and decided that something had to give or I was not going to be a good parent to her night and day. She was 7 months old when we started and is now coming up to 10 months.

We did pay for the expert to come in and I found it very helpful. Due to both tiredness and general inexperience as a parent I needed someone to come and give me a schedule to follow and some general advise. It was a case of sticking to a very rigid daytime schedule for one week and then once that was established doing another week of controlled crying- in intervals with lots of reassurance. It took a good 3 nights of crying for it to take but when it did it was a whole new world. She now generally sleeps from 7:30 - 7:30, still has the dream feed but oh well, and has regular and consistent naps.

There was a few 'golden rules' that needed to be followed which were basically around sticking very closely to the schedule. Not all nights have been perfect- we have had some tricky nights on holiday and while teething. If she wakes now though it is usually very quickly and she will re-settle with her dummy and scarf (don't ask ;) )Anyways I'm happy to discuss it more if you want to PM. It is hard work and it is best done as a team if you can. Good luck.

L x

[charlottep]

Ruth - as you say that your little boy did sleep during your stint in hospital, any chance you can equip your husband with a sleep training plan and have him do the sleep training? Maybe he could take a couple of days off work - cheaper option than getting someone in, at least as a first attempt. I know from experience it's not always easy getting the OH to take on the burden, but it's just a thought, particularly as you're going back to work.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Charlotte,

I did suggest this but husband was less than impressed with the idea. Also, we KNOW our son will behave with my husband, without fail, so he wouldn't need to train him at all- it just seems to be ME around that entices our son to wake up. I actually think I need to train bubs to sleep without DH flapping around worrying me/telling me I'm doing it all wrong. Urgh. BUT I may have a few nights 'off' before I launch into the sleep training so at least I have a bit more energy to actually do it.

[Moos]

Ruth_Baldock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I sound stupid saying this, but I'm going away to

> Babington House, sans child, for my birthday in 3

> weeks and I will fully admit looking forward to

> getting the chance to have a lovely meal

> uninterrupted and being able to SLEEP

> uninterrupted than I am about the actual trip. How

> sad is that?!

Sounds completely logical to me, and not sad at all. There's a reason they use sleep deprivation as torture... getting back to feeling normal is utter bliss. Plus there's the sense of being free of being needed so very much all the time which (though lovely in its way) is very tiring.

BTW, if you do decide to try the sleep training yourself (whichever method you go with) it probably would indeed make sense to try to get some extra sleep anyhow and anytime you can in the meanwhile, and while you're doing it try to nap when your baby is napping. And doing it as a team definitely important.

Best of luck - we're all rooting for you!

[snowboarder]

Ruth - as you know we got outside help in with baby snowboarder - the costs were not totally prohibitive (well - compared to Babington House!) but I expect they vary dep on who/what you get/do. I think the most important thing if you go down this route is to ensure that you are fully signed up to the method(s) whoever you get to help you employs - or it will never work. I basically put all activities etc on hold for about 2 months and had steely determination to make night and day sleeps work. PM me if you want an idea of what we paid. Good luck....and have a lovely night away - I have not managed that yet even with bsb at 16 months!

[cuppa tea]

Eww, I had one of those babies! Very, very painful sleep deprivation. I would definitely second what GinaG3 has said. We were all over the place with our routines and I don't think the poor kid knew where he was. We then stuck to a sleep plan to the minute, including mealtimes (he was 18 months when we did this so older than yours). I never let him sleep even 5 minutes longer for his naps, or in the morning. And never let him sleep past 3pm. After a couple of weeks he was much more settled. Sleeping at night didn't happen until we sorted out the daytime naps. He was still breastfeeding at night (all night!) at 18 months, so I did have to get my husband involved to help with night-weaning. It just wouldn't have worked if I had done it. Sorting it out was not actually that bad. He is also a persistent one and would have cried till he lost his voice had I tried 'crying it out' methods! Not that my frazzled nerves could have taken it.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my bit! He's 3 and a half now and sleeps brilliantly most of the time. Goes to bed, in his own bed, no problem. He still really, really needs the routine though or all hell breaks lose!

Hope it gets better for you soon. Sleep is amazingly important!

[Ruth_Baldock]

Thanks everyone :) It seems that whilst I was convinced that bad nighttime sleep meant bad day sleep, it is the other way round? Or perhaps it's one of those chicken and egg situations?

Today Seb napped a lot better- two hours (10-12) and then 1hr 15mins in the afternoon before falling asleep at 7pm. V good. Then he woke up at 8.30 screaming and throwing himself around his cot, and is STILL up now, although my husband just took him upstairs to 'settle' him after I had to go and stand in the kitchen and count to 10, lest I run away and join the circus...

Thanks for your support; husband and I are starting a NEW routine with baby, starting on Saturday- up at 7am at the latest; so if any of you see a frazzled and hysterical looking family wandering around peckham rye park at about 7.45am for a bit of 'fresh air', spare a thought for us ;)

[Ruth_Baldock]

Oh but I DID want to add; we've had mealtimes at the same time, very strictly, since we weaned him onto solids with the same bathtime/bedtime routine since he was 13 days old and could have regular baths- so am not a total novice...;)

[Pickle]

As controversial as it can be, I'm a firm believer that routine (of some sort, not necessarily a by the book approach) is key. This is basically backed up in any parenting programme you watch, and came across strongly in the sleep documentary last week - different approaches but both based around routine.

Good idea to start your day at 7am - that's what we've always done and it seems to help with the spacing of naps during the day. I really do think that good daytime sleep = good nighttime sleep.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

P x

[GinaG3]

I wish you all the best with trying out the routine. It will be hard work but worth sticking at for sure. When you have that first nights sleep after what feels like years its total bliss.

I got a 5am wake up call this morning, 2 hours in to my day already. Ho hum..

[randomv]

Hi Ruth

Like sb I got a sleep consultant a few months back when w

2 year old mini Random - previously a champion sleeper - developed some major separation anxiety issues and would not sleep without me in the room (I've done Gina with him since he was 5 months so you can imagine that lying on the floor with him holding his hand is NOT something he's been used to, but needs must when he was obviously very afraid) Anyway, I could not recommend this lady highly enough - she was fantastic and it 'only' cost around ?250. For me it was worth every penny to have a clear and consistent strategy to follow. It removed all the tension between hubby and I on how to deal with the issue and crucially, he was feeling secure enough to sleep soundly on his own within a few days. We used a well known sleep expert who uses gentle methods - happy to pm you the details if you like?

[MaeveW]

Hi Ruth,

I totally emphasise with your situation. However, is there no way of solving lack of sleep without professional help? My 2 year old twins are STILL waking up in the night, and will only settle with milk. After watching that channel 4 documentary, we tried cutting out night time milk feed, but only resulting in screaming for 2 hours and anxiety on all sides, night after night!!!

For us, we can't afford a sleep expert so it is not an option.

I really hope you manage to solve your sleep problems - and any tips much appreciated!