dangerous junction of barry road and underhill rd

[Nicholas]

DJKQ I can't physically prove it and obviously I don't have speed gun in my brain ha ha, but take it from a very experienced professional driving Instructor (ADI) In my oppinion I would say that some drivers have exceeded 60mph along Barry Rd, I'm surprised you find it hard believe? So many cars these days can reach 60mph in less than 10seconds,it feels like your doing 40mph.You could always purchase a speed gun,stand there for a couple of days im sure someone would do at least 60mph. Remember motorbikes bomb down there too. The road is long and straight,and at times not much traffic,so there's a recipe for a possible disaster.At times there are usually lots of buses which should slow a lot of the traffic down.But the 12 is so long in length and travels quite slowly with frequent stops that why so many bad drivers with little patience try to overtake them with no regard for oncoming traffic and junctions etc so consequently so damm dangerous and thats a major problem.Barry Rd is probably no more dangerous than other roads of its kind. (IT'S JUST BAD DRIVING IS THE REAL PROBLEM)

[skidmarks]

Applespider Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> skidmarks Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A highway authority would never install a

> mirror.

>

> Not always true. TFL has recently installed

> mirrors at lights along the new cycle

> superhighways to help the drivers of large

> vehicles see if a cyclist has (stupidly) come up

> alongside and is in their blind spot.

Perhaps I should have said in this situation.

I was doing a safety audit on a road up in Havering where there had been a fatal accident, I took the attached photo of a convex mirror installed by an owner of a private airfield for allow drivers to see around a corner as there was a high hedge. Would you want to trust your life on this? A mirror is a really poor option, everything should be done to provide a clear forward visibility of at least 60m on this type of road.

[Penguin68]

skidmarks writes: Would you want to trust your life on this?

In addition to anything else, yes - if it can offer additional information then I am happy to use it as best I can - ideally that junction should be traffic light controlled - it won't be for lots of different reasons so we are already into second best land - so a mirror, double-yellows that stop parked vehicles obscuring the view, moving the pedestrian crossing to the other side (my feeling is that would have a better effect on slowing down traffic heading towards the Rye, where they have had a long downhill to pick up speed, than traffic heading up to the Plough) all this would help, a mirror would help even where it wasn't an ideal, or a good sole, solution.

I suspect that the majority of users of that junction are 'regulars' who could soon adapt to using the mirror as yet another aide to safety. Where it is obscured by rain or condensation it would be of less use, obviously, but unless this was a permanent condition it would be of some use, sometimes.

[Nicholas]

I would not trust the mirror,plus those type of things are usually used on country lanes blind bends etc. The only safe way to emerge into Barry Rd and others like it is what I teach my pupils,look right left and right again and edge out if necessary.Other thing is to stop vehicles parking close to all junctions that would help the observation issues.

The real problem is bad driving and drivers flouting the law on a daily basis. I don't wish to be unpopular, Maybe a retest for all every ten years. That's another subject.

[TonyQuinn]

I wish to repeat that it's more or less every junction on Barry and Lordship that is a problem. We all know that with this government there is not going to be any new funds available....but I'm sure the council can get a bit of cash together for some yellow paint to get some double yellows going around all those junctions to give drivers coming out onto either Barry or Lordship more of a chance of getting out safely.

Let's all write to the council to get this done!

[SteveT]

I suspect they may have to move the bus stop, up the hill from the junction for good visibility.

[katie1997]

TonyQuinn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I wish to repeat that it's more or less every

> junction on Barry and Lordship that is a problem.

> We all know that with this government there is not

> going to be any new funds available....but I'm

> sure the council can get a bit of cash together

> for some yellow paint to get some double yellows

> going around all those junctions to give drivers

> coming out onto either Barry or Lordship more of a

> chance of getting out safely.

> Let's all write to the council to get this done!

so have the road safety issues only arisen since the new government were elected? Did the previous government not have enough time in power to address the issues?

[Nicholas]

If the council could stop all vehicles parking close to all junctions that would be a start,at least you would have much better vision,consequently much safer.In regards to the speeding motorists although im not a great lover of speed humps or speed cameras but if they save lives im all for it. Moneys tight it aint gonna happen!

[skidmarks]

Double yellow lines are not as simple as they sound. It is a democratic process, the traffic orders have to be advertised for a minimum of 6 weeks, which allows people to object which can lengthen the process by months. The final decision is made at the relevant council committee meeting. Past experience has shown that residents object to loss of on-street parking. Look up the thread about parking loss on Goose Green for an example. It takes a brave councillor to ignore lots of objections.

[TonyQuinn]

Skidmarks.....I feel uncomfortable refering to you as that.

Anyway, you seem to know a lot....what d'ya suggest we do?

[skidmarks]

Road safety is a reactive process. Money only comes available when people are actually getting hurt (not damage only accidents). With a fatal accident costing in the region of ?1M to the economy you will get a good cost benefit ratio from doing works to a problem site. You would not throw money at road if there was not a recorded accident problem would you? Sites that have a perceived problem, where people are saying?it is an accident waiting to happen?. are usually quite safe as drivers reactive differently and cautiously.

I do not think there will be an issue with double yellow lines. Just don?t go for a mirror. It will take one person to rely solely on the mirror and cause some hideous accident. Remove the guard railings and car parking and make sure driver and riders can make eye contact with each other

[DJKillaQueen]

The only way to know hwat speed a car is going at for sure is to measure it with something. Visual guessing is never accurate and often overestimated. Driving instructors don't have a speed gun in their brain and are no more able to accurately judge the speed of a car (beyond a guess) than any other daily driver, you or I.

I agree that yellow lines are probably the best and most sensible option, but yes there will be objections to the loss of parking. Humps are designed to reduce speed limits to 20mph (speeding drivers usually take no notice of them anyway). and are not an option as it is a B road. That is why there are only raised areas instead.

I personally would like to see some accident statistics because I'm not convinced it is more dangerous than any other average B road.

Visibility IS a valid issue but that should be resolved easily with reduced parking at the junctions.

[Rhinestone Cowboy]

Hello use this junction everyday on my scooter and also feel its a problem .. If you go further up to Barry and Goodrich they have zebra crossing on raised tarmac. Not sure its the same for all but I tend to slow down when I see zebra crossing add in the slightly raised road plus you have the lines that go with zebra crossing stopping cars from parking

Maybe the council could look into accidents at Barry/goodrich and see if any good for this junction. I know the raised road will upset some re the buses bouncing over and cars slowing-speeding up so maybe start with Zebra crossing.. just a thought

[skidmarks]

I was just thinking of an example of a road in Sussex I worked on. It had a 30mph speed limit but the 85%ile speed was way over 40. There wasn?t any money to install physical traffic calming, so we removed the centre line of the road making the road look much narrower. When drivers don?t have that demarcation of a centre line indicating their space they tend to slow down. Think about how you drive on a wide county lane. I think this would be a cheap option to test on Barry Road to reduce speed.

You can see it here. You can just see the old centre marking. It changes the whole environment/feel of the road through the village

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=forest+row&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.304449,39.331055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Forest+Row,+East+Sussex,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.096124,0.052797&spn=0,0.009602&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.093971,0.051398&panoid=DR7w1e8u2mDMXDVnl0Z8vg&cbp=12,92.52,,0,25.11

[DJKillaQueen]

It's an interesting idea. Some schemes have gone further in Europe...removing lights, signs and even pavements with interesting results (i.e safer).

As a general issue - I think more needs to be done to improve driving skills anyway, the test needs to be longer and I would favour retesting, say every 10 years as well.

[skidmarks]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> It's an interesting idea. Some schemes have gone

> further in Europe...removing lights, signs and

> even pavements with interesting results (i.e

> safer).

>

> As a general issue - I think more needs to be done

> to improve driving skills anyway, the test needs

> to be longer and I would favour retesting, say

> every 10 years as well.

Yes, the Ashford ringroad has just had this type of thing implemented to it. I was watching some videos of it recently. Pedestrians and vulnerable road users are still being dominated by vehicular traffic when they have equal priority. Attitudes are different here to Europe?except maybe Paris.

[James Barber]

As mentioned before, and I posted a collision hotspot map, the collision data for East Dulwich shows Lordship Lane broadly between Northcross Road and Goose Green roundabout to be where most collissions occur on our patch.

Improving sight lines can help but can also make drivers feel able to drive faster. We've had sight lines improved along Barry Road with double yellow lines and the collision rates I'm told have gone down but not eliminated. Hence this thread.

I'll be concentrating my efforts planned improvements to Lordship Lane until lthe measures taken on Barry Road have had a chance ot settle down.

[Jeremy]

skidmarks Wrote:

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> Attitudes are different here to Europe?except maybe Paris.

I disagree... Italy, Spain, France (not just Paris), Greece... unsignalled pedestrian crossings may as well not exist!!

[DJKillaQueen]

Yeah in France there is no obligation for the driver to stop even if someone is stood on the zebra crossing. I had to tell a French friend of mine the rules when she first drove in London...I was in the car as she drove over a zebra within inches of a pedestrian.

[Nicholas]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The only way to know hwat speed a car is going at

> for sure is to measure it with something. Visual

> guessing is never accurate and often

> overestimated. Driving instructors don't have a

> speed gun in their brain and are no more able to

> accurately judge the speed of a car (beyond a

> guess) than any other daily driver, you or I.

>

>

I disagree,ive been teaching and been involved in road safety for over 25years I think I would be a better judge of speed then say the average motorist. Of course I can't be 100% accurate but I have a pretty good idea of speed.To be totally accurate we would need the police to have regular speed checks and I think you will find that 60mph is not exaggerated.I think some of the road markings around the area ara appalling particullary Underhill Rd onto Barry Rd urgently needs a stop line and sign. Anyway I have been teaching most of the day,im pleased to say that Barry Rd and drivers in general have been well behaved and patient to me and my pupils. Don't you think it's much calmer and safer without the school runs?

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes it is, and if drivers only were more patient and put safety first there'd be no problems and 'accidents' truly would be accidents. I drive, cycle and motorcycle and there are good and bad drivers/ riders in every group. Looking out for the hazards of bad driving is as much a part of being a good driver as anything else imo.

[Nicholas]

If only all speed limits could be obeyed particularly in residential and built up areas.This is what I tell all my pupils.Remember,driving is a team game where everybody is responsible for each other's safety on the road.

I would like to see a retest every 10years for all road users. As I said previously.

We have one of the world's best road safety records.

Nicholas Driving Academy SE22

[expat]

>in France there is no obligation for the driver to stop even if someone is stood on the zebra crossing.

I do not think that is true from http://www.french-property.com/reference/driving_rules/

You must stop at Zebra crossings, this is enforced by law, but not widely practiced in France.

Sanctions and Penalty Fines

?Amende Contractuelle: ?135

?Amende Contractuelle minor?e (if you pay within 3 or 15 days): ?90

?Amende Contractuelle major?e: ?375.

Just because there are people breaking the law does not mean it is not the law.

[DJKillaQueen]

Ahhh...so my french pals ignore the law in their own country.....tres tres mal.............hee hee

(edited for my usually spelling mistakes!)