Despicable Ruritanianism

[jaywalker]

The government has shown its true colours. I guess Theresa May was already fully subscribed to this despicable Ruritanianism (Gellner, Nations and Nationalism). So now there will be a policy that firms must count their foreign workers so that they can be monitored and if not 'patriotic' because employing them (or is it employing any of them?) named and shamed. No doubt foreign-born workers will soon have to wear badges (otherwise, how could one tell they were foreign - a mistake the appalling Ms Rudd seems to have made in her own constituency, thinking they were foreign because they looked foreign to HER).

This as part of a power-grab from an unelected Prime Minister to appeal to the worst segments of the UK electorate - those who with good reason feel ressentiment (this is not a spelling mistake) but who express this as xenophobic, reactionary, petty-mindedness. Give us our country back, build walls and fences, stop all immigration now (whether or not that has anything whatsoever to do with the EU).

Small wonder the pound is tanking. We have seen nothing yet.

[Elphinstone's Army]

what's your point

[KidKruger]

Agree on ain't seen nowt yet. The hole the UK has dug itself is gone be well deep (pun NOT intended).

[????]

Except there won't be a policy and it never was put forward as a policy -it was just a stupid idea by Amber Rudd that has been buried. People are just misinformed and hysterical - and the internet just spreads this kind of crap like wildfire.

Please define the worst sectors of the UK electorate too - people who don't agree with you maybe?

PS Pseuds Corner anyone

[Jenny1]

I disagree ????. I think anything that makes it into a Home Secretary's conference speech has to be taken seriously. And I, like Jaywalker, am really concerned that we've now entered a political climate where it's considered acceptable to use fear of foreigners as a means of drumming up votes. I know you're not putting the question to me - but I would define the worst sectors of the British electorate as extremists on the 'right' and 'left'.

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

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> Except there won't be a policy and it never was

> put forward as a policy -it was just a stupid

> idea by Amber Rudd that has been buried.

Well, it was an announcement made by the Home Secretary in a major national televised speech and I haven't seen anywhere that it's been buried as yet.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Whether the xenophobic stuff is anymore than 'just' rhetoric remains to be seen, but the rhetoric itself is pretty shocking. How May claims to be on the centre ground is beyond me, the anti foreigner stuff sounds pretty extreme to my ears and rather alarming. I cannot remember a time when politics has been in such complete disarray.

[red devil]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I cannot remember a time when

> politics has been in such complete disarray.

That all depends how old you are rah3...

[????]

Yeh, agree RD - Rah I thought you were about our age. All my youth it was - the NF polling really high; coming second in bi-elections; Lewisham, country in apparent terminal decline, riots, Northern Ireland imploding and bombs all over London etc etc - enjoyed my youth very much tho!

I think some people of a liberal/left persuasion, and I count myself as liberal, are seeing emerging fascism where it really isn't - just a bit of inward looking conservatism (and better than how it's manifesting itself in say France or the US), I regret this and Brexit but it's nothing compared to what's potentially being dished up at the other end of the Spectrum and it's not looking amramegeddon

[red devil]

Yep, that was what I was alluding to Quids, throw in the 3-day week, Winter of Discontent, power cuts, OPEC crisis, double digit inflation/interest rates, Lib/Lab pact, and the Black & White Minstrel Show, and it was a shambles of a country.

That all brought about Thatch and we're probably seeing something similar...

[Jenny1]

I'm afraid I'm quite old enough to have experienced all those things too. Remember sugar rationing?

But the point is that we have just emerged from a prolonged period when it appeared that social democracy had (for the first time) become the norm in this country. And that, to my mind, was a very good thing.

But (all of a sudden) that's not the case anymore. What we're being reminded of now is that you can't take social and economic stability for granted. Both Gordon Brown's government and the coalition did a good job of steering us out of choppy waters after the crash. But within the coalition developed the roots of our current problems. The Conservative obsession with 'balancing the books' at all costs was not sophisticated enough. It ignored the fact that when the economy is rocky you have to look to social as well as fiscal stability. They could have learnt something from Roosevelt in the US in the 30s. If only they'd woken up to the fact that they really needed some well targeted taxing and spending a little earlier than last week. The result of this failure has been the pinched public services that have fuelled people's sense of insecurity. This has stoked political extremism of all hues, and left us on the road to Brexit, which - ironically - threatens our economic stability again.

So I don't think this is like Thatcher emerging after the chaos of the 70s. Though TM would surely like to take on that mantle. Our current problems derive from a completely different source.

[Jenny1]

And to expand a bit on the point that was raised that we (who are old enough) remember an era when the National Front used to win a lot of votes.

The feelings that fuel that politics never go away. They're always there in all societies, rumbling beneath the surface, and vigilance is required to keep them in check. What's alarming is that we're seeing them start to rise up to visible levels again.

The only thing that keeps these feelings at a 'safe' level is a society managed to ensure welfare and security in a reasonably equable way. When people feel embattled they turn on 'the other' - anyone will do, even if the 'otherness' is very slight.

[jaywalker]

???? Wrote:

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> Please define the worst sectors of the UK

> electorate too - people who don't agree with you

> maybe?

>

> PS Pseuds Corner anyone

Well, I don't agree with the people I saw (and whose actions I heard of from local EU residents, including one 80 year old lady) shouting abuse at anyone they perceived to be not British after the referendum result. People who think like this (only the rabid ones actually articulate it) form a troubling part of electorates in all occidental countries. Of course the visibility of this (and the amount of it) varies with many socio-economic factors. You can find them in most political parties (in the Lib Dems it tends to be sublimated). It takes different forms (the will to purify can be expressed as extreme nationalism, homophobia, anti-Semitism etc - these do not necessarily go together.) What Adorno called the authoritarian personality.

It has nothing to do with Brexit as such - the majority of those voting for Brexit are perfectly sensible people (and indeed they were led by old-fashioned globalising liberals Johnson and Gove who will have been dismayed by the new May agenda).

And certainly neither May nor Rudd are authoritarian in this sense (authoritarian MPs are quickly weeded out by the whips and remain on the backbenches). But I believe the language of politics matters greatly. We should expect from our leaders great care not to pander in any way however slight to such people. Counting foreign workers in firms is a proposal that does not meet that standard.

You say it is not a policy. But the Home Secretary is in a position of huge responsibility and it was presented as her view. I doubt very much that she has really thought about the matter at all in these terms - it was just populist rubbish for a conference; but as such it is deeply irresponsible.

I'm sorry if the post sounded pseudish (used to love reading that column in private eye :-) ). But this does not seem to me a matter for light-heartedness or pulling back on vocabulary or ideas (my tin ear is such that I can't really hear the pseud-ness you can hear).

Do you really think that democracy cannot be overtaken by authoritarianism democratically?

[Blah Blah]

Very good posts Jenny. I'd also add that turning on immigrants in times of difficulty is nothing new either. But when there are no longer any immigrants to attack, who then?

The conservatives seem to have forgotten that almost half the electorate did NOT vote for Brexit and may well be shooting themselves in the foot with this rhetoric (and that for the most part is what it is as much of it will never get through parliament nor the lords into law). If only we had an opposition that could fill the void.

[teddyboy23]

And those that voted remain still can't accept ,that over 17 million people voted for out.

[Jenny1]

I think Rudd and May may be more authoritarian than you suggest jaywalker

Also....

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>

> It has nothing to do with Brexit as such - the

> majority of those voting for Brexit are perfectly

> sensible people (and indeed they were led by

> old-fashioned globalising liberals Johnson and

> Gove who will have been dismayed by the new May

> agenda).

>

>

I disagree. I think that this (by which I mean the new acceptability in political life of singling out foreigners) has a lot to do with Brexit.

Politicians know that many Leave voters were 'protest' voters and identified the UKIP agenda as a way of making their lives more secure. And TM wants to grab the UKIP vote. That's why her cabinet are prepared to say things that would have been unacceptable even a year ago.

And as to Johnson and Gove. The overriding characteristic of both in my view (though they differ in many ways) is not an adherence to globalising liberalism but a terrifying, childish self obsession.

[malumbu]

Firstly I would like to defend the 70s. I enjoyed the music, football and pubs more. But them I am a product of my time. Interesting that someone referred to sugar rationing. I bet that was down to the lack of a competitive market and relying on old school commonwealth.

Secondly in my life time its the first time I've seen a government swing both ways. To nationalism in one respect, and to socialism in another. Perhaps we could define a new word drawing on both words, Na si. And then look for a symbol that would help reunite the coutry, there is a good Hindu one for peace and stability (and possibly strength) that comes to mind.

[Blah Blah]

You have no way of knowing what a seceond vote would result in Teddyboy anymore than any of us. I think a fair section of those who voted to leave would also be repulsed by the anti-immigrant language emanating from the government, along with the numerous attacks that occured since.

This is not about how the vote went anyway (unless you are arguing that half the population voted for Brexit on the issue of immgration - something that many leave voters deny btw). It's about common decency, something I would like to think that most people would aspire to. Targetting immigrants who are already here and working for example, is not about controlling the numbers we allow in, it's persecution of those already here perfectly legally. This is why I and others are speaking out. It sends out absolutely the wrong signal.

[Blah Blah]

Again Jenny is spot on. This is a deliberate attempt to grab votes lost to UKIP by the Tories. When May talks about being for the working class, she means the working class that have swung to UKIP (because she knows that Labour are doing nothing to win those votes). There is no way that Amber Rudd will ever get an act of parliament forcing companies to produce lists of migrant workers through the Lords - and she may not even get it through parliament. The parallels to the right wing tyrannies of the past are just too ominous - don't thnk I've quite invoked Godwin's Law there but... :D

[jaywalker]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> I think Rudd and May may be more authoritarian

> than you suggest jaywalker

They are certainly authoritarian-illiberal-statist-micro-managing-conservatives. One only has to look at the new IP Bill to be sure of that. But they are not authoritarian in the sense I used it in the post.

> Also....

> > It has nothing to do with Brexit as such - the

> > majority of those voting for Brexit are

> perfectly

> > sensible people

> I disagree. I think that this (by which I mean the

> new acceptability in political life of singling

> out foreigners) has a lot to do with Brexit.

Yes, Brexit has indicated to a cynical government that there are votes (and quite a lot of them) to be had by appealing to anti-immigration sentiments, including reactionary ones. It has excused all sorts of mischief. My point was that one cannot pin such sentiments on those who voted for Brexit per se - many perfectly sensible people voted for it (one can even be sensibly anti-immigration). I think we both disagree with the latter, but so what? What matters to me is isolating the appeal to the authoritarian and that is not a matter of Brexit as such.

[Jenny1]

Absolutely. There were plenty of 'sensible' reasons to vote for Brexit. And I can see that you were meaning something more defined and particular when you talked about authoritarianism than I did. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that everyone who voted for Brexit is an authoritarian.

But surely what matters is how the current government are choosing to interpret and use the referendum result to push forward ideas which last year would have been labelled 'too BNP' by the Conservatives? I'm not saying they're going to implement any of this stuff - but as already noted here - the language really matters because it sets the tone of our society.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Firms already need to report the number of third country national foreign workers. Whilst I am not condoning the extension of the policy to EU foreigners, I do find it interesting that no-one was up in arms when the requirement was imposed on the 3CNs.

I particularly remember when an ID card was proposed in the noughties by the Labour government. Everyone howled about how it would be a terrible infraction of civil liberties, and yet when the decision was made to drop the card EXCEPT for 3CNs, who still have to have one, no-one batted an eyelid.

I have 3CN friends who have been treated like second-class members of society for some time. This clearly isn't right, but the current hyperbole about how appalling this is now it might affect EU nationals is hypocritical.

[Earl Aelfheah]

red devil Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I cannot remember a time when

> > politics has been in such complete disarray.

>

> That all depends how old you are rah3...

I was born in 77 (so 39). I think with everything that going on not just here, but across Europe and in the uS, it feels like politics is struggling. I'm not saying there hasn't been political or economic turmoil before, but things feel a lot less stable / unpredictable than they have for a long time.

Drop in a bit of xenophobic rhetoric and I think its right fo be wary.

[Jenny1]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> I do find it interesting that no-one

> was up in arms when the requirement was imposed on

> the 3CNs.

>

>

You're right. We should have reacted more to that.

[Blah Blah]

And I think most people don't even know that is the case Wondercat. It was snuck in under the public radar, like so many things.