Travellers (no longer) on Dulwich Hospital site

[Jules-and-Boo]

we're not talking about ALL travellers. We're specifically talking on here about the travellers who have squatted on the park and the school sites and left loads of mess to be cleared.

A number of people are very welcoming - and that's great.

Some people are very wary.

It's funny the former have all gone quiet now that that the fears have been realised.

Next time travellers come to ED, we will all no doubt be split about welcoming them, tainted or not by the experience of this group.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

Let's be clear - there are the 'genuine' travelling communities which are, in this day and age, few and far between. And then there are 'Travellers' who are like our recent visitors, who exist and operate outside the laws of the land and in a way any decent member of society (static or genuine traveller alike) will find abhorrent.

Sadly the former outway the latter but are afforded protected status by the likes of some on here who brandish nonsense like the racist card at the drop of a hat - despite the clue (race) being there.

I'm joined to several forums for both professional and personal interests and there are a few common themes on threads that run across them all it seems; relationships is one, 'travellers' is another. And for every Sue there are dozens of respondents who have real life experience of our travelling chums and the misery, cost and filth they leave in their wake. Doesn't stop the Sues of this world buying their copies of the Guardian, mind you, but their contribution soon tails off under the overwhelming weight of actual evidence.

[Blah Blah]

I don't think anyone has excused flytipping or breaking into private land ED. The problem is that the conversation has gone beyond this in one or two posts. And I don't know why you are singling out Sue either. You are the one that wrote 'Its the thieving messy 99% that give the 1% a bad name.' and that was your opening comment! You deserve to be called out on that.

[Sue]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> A number of people are very welcoming - and that's

> great.

> Some people are very wary.

>

> It's funny the former have all gone quiet now that

> that the fears have been realised.

Speaking solely for myself, I have"gone all quiet" because I have had a very busy day and checking the East Dulwich Forum has not been part of it.

[Sue]

ED - NAGAIUTB Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

And for every Sue there are dozens of

> respondents who have real life experience of our

> travelling chums and the misery, cost and filth

> they leave in their wake. Doesn't stop the Sues of

> this world buying their copies of the Guardian,

> mind you, but their contribution soon tails off

> under the overwhelming weight of actual evidence.

OK.

First off, I don't buy the Guardian.

Second, please post on here "the overwhelming weight of actual evidence".

I'm not holding my breath.

[binkylilyput]

I've gone quiet because I find the tone of a number of the posts on this and related threads offensive. I also see that when others have challenged the prejudicial undertones of some comments (not even undertones in some, just blatant)some posters have then become quite rude and nasty.

Try swapping the word "traveller" for another marginalised and persecuted minority and see how well it sits then. Amazing how such comments are deemed perfectly acceptable when made about people from a travelling community.

And now posters can say that if they hadn't left rubbish (as many, many other groups of people do who aren't travellers)then East Dulwich would have welcomed them with open arms and a cup of tea.

Yeah right.

[chrisbeach]

binkylilyput Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've gone quiet because I find the tone of a

> number of the posts on this and related threads

> offensive.

Here we go with the virtue-signalers.

Are you offended?

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f**king what." --Stephen Fry

Are these travellers of the Roma ethnicity? If not, the criticisms here are not directed at a race, but are directed at itinerant, nomadic people who have a lot to answer for because of their own selfish behaviour.

[Penguin68]

Are these travellers of the Roma ethnicity? If not, the criticisms here are not directed at a race, but are directed at itinerant, nomadic people

Apart from New Age Travellers (who you don't see around here) - travellers are either Roma or Irish. Attacking either can be seen as a race-based hate crime.

[rendelharris]

chrisbeach Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm

> rather offended by that.' As if that gives them

> certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than

> a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no

> meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be

> respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.'

> Well, so f**king what." --Stephen Fry

So if someone says "Jews are only interested in money and secretly run the world" or "Blacks will never be as clever as whites because it's genetic" saying "I'm offended by that" is "just whining." The first thing bigots need is for it to be made clear that others do not find their opinions acceptable. I like Stephen Fry but he doesn't half talk some shite sometimes, as do those who quote him (quite possibly out of context, I suspect he was talking about people who are offended by bad language or portrayals of homosexuality on TV than either of the examples I've used).

[chrisbeach]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Apart from New Age Travellers (who you don't see

> around here) - travellers are either Roma or

> Irish. Attacking either can be seen as a

> race-based hate crime.

I think it's more racist to suggest that travellers and Irish people are of the same subgroup, than it is to criticise travellers themselves.

[Penguin68]

Irish Travellers are a sub group of the Irish - one is contained within the other. So whereas all Irish Travellers are Irish, it is not true that all Irish are Irish Travellers. Simples. New Age apart there are only two key groups of itinerant workers who travel with their own accommodation, rather than relying on accommodation provided where they are to work. Irish Tinsmiths are one group - but the largest group (historically) of Irish Itinerant workers - Irish Navies, working first on canals and later on the railways, did not travel with their own accommodation.

[Jules-and-Boo]

I don't think it's racist to say we don't want squatters on the site of our new school - potentially holding up the work.

It just so happens they left the mess behind which is sadly a recognised behaviour.

Unfortunately, by calling anyone who connects this behaviour to any other groups of travellers racist is kind of denying the obvious.

[robbin]

Well said Stephen Fry! I'm sick of the snowflake, hand-wringing, quick to accuse others of any sort of 'ism' they choose, generation.

What's funny is that as you meet people in the real world in ED you hardly ever hear that sort of stuff, but on the EDF such accusations seem to be liberally (no pun intended) levelled at people, often in response to perfectly appropriate remarks. The anonymity of the keyboard sometimes seems to have the effect of encouraging the sanctimonious.

[rendelharris]

robbin Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well said Stephen Fry! I'm sick of the snowflake,

> hand-wringing, quick to accuse others of any sort

> of 'ism' they choose, generation.

>

> What's funny is that as you meet people in the

> real world in ED you hardly ever hear that sort of

> stuff, but on the EDF such accusations seem to be

> liberally (no pun intended) levelled at people,

> often in response to perfectly appropriate

> remarks. The anonymity of the keyboard sometimes

> seems to have the effect of encouraging the

> sanctimonious.

Personally I'm sick of the stupid phrase "snowflake generation" aimed at anyone who is in the slightest bit liberal in politics or attitude. And it's ironic that you, "Robbin," should say "The anonymity of the keyboard sometimes seems to have the effect of encouraging the sanctimonious" - I'm using my full name on here, why don't you?

[Blah Blah]

And I'm fed up of those who can't seperate the actions of a group of people locally from an entire cultural and/or ethnic group, and then call those of us that identify the obvious bigotry for what it is, self righteous.

Here's a good analogy for you ChrisBeach. A met Police Officer once reported that most street robbers were black teenagers (and that may be true in his small patch) but does that mean most black teenagers are street robbers? No-one in their right mind would be stupid enough to say it does and yet, when it comes to travellers, some people here, feel the need to defend such flawed logic!

The truth is that most people commenting here have never lived anywhere near, let alone among, enough traveller communities (Irish, Roma or otherwise) to know what is and isn't typical behaviour, anti-social, criminal or otherwise.

[rendelharris]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And I'm fed up of those who can't seperate the

> actions of a group of people locally from an

> entire cultural and/or ethnic group, and then call

> those of us that identify the obvious bigotry for

> what it is, self righteous.

>

> Here's a good analogy for you ChrisBeach. A met

> Police Officer once reported that most street

> robbers were black teenagers (and that may be true

> in his small patch) but does that mean most black

> teenagers are street robbers? No-one in their

> right mind would be stupid enough to say it does

> and yet, when it comes to travellers, some people

> here, feel the need to defend such flawed logic!

>

> The truth is that most people commenting here have

> never lived anywhere near, let alone among, enough

> traveller communities (Irish, Roma or otherwise)

> to know what is and isn't typical behaviour,

> anti-social, criminal or otherwise.

Spot on thank you Blah, to prove the old saw wrong that "a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged" I've been mugged at knifepoint twice in my life, once by a couple of black teenagers when I lived in Brixton, once by a couple of white teenagers when I lived in Bath. On neither occasion, although I was upset and, frankly, scared, did I say "Oh that's what they're like" - I just knew I'd fallen prey to a criminal minority of the prevailing majority ethnic group in that area.

[spider69]

The truth is when caravans etc normally turn up piles of rubbish follow. So could one correctly then say this is typical behaviour or just a lapse moment from normal considerate behaviour.

[peckham_ryu]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> a couple of white teenagers when I lived in Bath.

Glad you survived to tell the tale. Those 'orrible kids from Twerton can be viscous little buggers!

[rendelharris]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > a couple of white teenagers when I lived in

> Bath.

>

> Glad you survived to tell the tale. Those 'orrible

> kids from Twerton can be viscous little buggers!

They bloody was I'm tell 'ee my old dear, though I lived up north of the river - might have got the bus. We didn't have time to exchange pleasantries...

[Sue]

Odd that nobody has yet mentioned the thread linked to below.

Ah. Could it be that it doesn't conveniently fit their prejudices, as presumably Travellers aren't involved?

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1623662,page=1

I haven't seen anybody condemning all the residents of East Dulwich on the grounds that a few of them leave a load of rubbish which is an eyesore and which others have to clear up.

[rendelharris]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Odd that nobody has yet mentioned the thread

> linked to below.

>

> Ah. Could it be that it doesn't conveniently fit

> their prejudices, as presumably Travellers aren't

> involved?

>

> http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5

> ,1623662,page=1

>

> I haven't seen anybody condemning all the

> residents of East Dulwich on the grounds that a

> few of them leave a load of rubbish which is an

> eyesore and which others have to clear up.

I believe I said this about one of your posts a few days ago Sue, but yet again you've smacked the nail squarely on the head!

[robbin]

I think my point has just been supported!

[rendelharris]

robbin Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think my point has just been supported!

Yep, that's what people who haven't got a decent point just love to say as if it makes theirs valid. Sorry, doesn't work on anyone more than about seven years old. Still, you keep on commenting hiding behind "the anonymity of the keyboard" which you so castigated!

[robbin]

Yawn! There it is again!

[robbin]

Anyway, back on topic, I'll be pleased when the environment of PR Common is cleaned up for the whole community to enjoy. Littering is a blight on the environment, as is fly tipping. I'm sure most people agree with that - even apologists for fly tippers would object if dumping took place in their back yard.