Travellers on Peckham Rye? (Lounged)

[pop9770]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Whilst I would not normally recommend Wikipedia as

> an authoritative source, these two articles are

> well referenced and may help those confused or

> dismissive about traveller populations to gain a

> better understanding.

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

yes that's exactly what isn't helpful because as I explained it's not a uk .gov list it's something written by people who have no legal basis for their views as such it's almost worthless but you knew that which is why you you say "I would not normally recommend Wikipedia as

an authoritative source"

[TheArtfulDogger]

Pop / Fazer wrote

----------------------

"trolling is clearly defined you'll see by all definitions above TheArtfulDogger has made a trolling post"

Curious how laughing at someone calling you a troll and posting an image that amused me which doesn't claim you are a troll or anything else classes me as a troll

Loved you pm as well, maybe you need to lie down in a quiet room and get some sleep sir as you are ranting at the moment

[Penguin68]

you have confirmed my suspicions that the baker hasn't done anything wrong

Are, here you are confusing morality with legality. But then confusion often seems the name of your game. I have already said that context is key in determining whether legal breaches have been made (and moral, for that matter). Screen capture to illustrate a morally doubtful action is very different, in intent, from screen capture to endorse it. As it would also be for an illegal one.

[Sue]

It seems to me that you are just being deliberately provocative, pop9770, so why don't you go and do it somewhere else and give us all a break?

If you are not being deliberately provocative, then unfortunately it does seem to me that you are incapable of grasping quite simple concepts, as for example in BrandNewGuy's posts above.

Which he helpfully posted twice as you didn't seem to understand the first time. Or else, for reasons best known to yourself, didn't properly read them.

[pop9770]

Here's a good link to ethnic slurs "confirming" frog is racist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

[Penguin68]

yes that's exactly what isn't helpful because as I explained it's not a uk .gov list it's something written by people who have no legal basis for their views as such it's almost worthless

This is simply rubbish - both articles are excessively referenced, from authoritative sources, and with bibliographies. You judge the quality of Wikipedia articles by the quality of their sources. These are both good. [i write as both a former academic and an historian]. And your view that something published on the (non peer reviewed) government website is somehow more authoritative than other sources is naive. Even for government publications the source of their information is key.

[pop9770]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It seems to me that you are just being

> deliberately provocative, pop9770, so why don't

> you go and do it somewhere else and give us all a

> break?

>

> If you are not being deliberately provocative,

> then unfortunately it does seem to me that you are

> incapable of grasping quite simple concepts, as

> for example in BrandNewGuy's posts above.

>

> Which he helpfully posted twice as you didn't seem

> to understand the first time. Or else, for reasons

> best known to yourself, didn't properly read them.

I am not I?m simply asking why you have all ganged up on the baker and if he has broken the law.

Can no one question your morals, you want me to give .. you all a break ? who are you all? That I should give you a break when you have not given me or the baker a break!

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> you have confirmed my suspicions that the baker

> hasn't done anything wrong

>

> Are, here you are confusing morality with

> legality. But then confusion often seems the name

> of your game. I have already said that context is

> key in determining whether legal breaches have

> been made (and moral, for that matter). Screen

> capture to illustrate a morally doubtful action is

> very different, in intent, from screen capture to

> endorse it. As it would also be for an illegal

> one.

Morality is meaningless have a read of

On the Genealogy of Morality

by Friedrich Nietzsche

What counts is the Law, morals help decide those laws until they are turned into law then morality is open and meaningless in absolute terms.

I asked is it illegal to use the term Gyppo and if so why is it not illegal to use the term Frog that's a reasonable question!

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Pop / Fazer wrote

> ----------------------

> "trolling is clearly defined you'll see by all

> definitions above TheArtfulDogger has made a

> trolling post"

>

> Curious how laughing at someone calling you a

> troll and posting an image that amused me which

> doesn't claim you are a troll or anything else

> classes me as a troll

>

> Loved you pm as well, maybe you need to lie down

> in a quiet room and get some sleep sir as you are

> ranting at the moment

You know exactly what you're doing you're goading and trolling.

How do you get away with being such a troll ?

[BrandNewGuy]

Crikey, someone's off their medication.

[pop9770]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> A derogatory term reinforces attitudes which can

> be materially to the detriment of that group.

> Using the 'N' word, for instance, reinforces a

> socially superior attitude towards black people

> and tacitly condones prejudice which can

> materiually affect people's life chances in terms

> of jobs, housing, encounters with the police etc.

> Calling a Frenchman a 'frog' does none of those

> things. The former is unacceptable, while the

> latter is just being impertinent :-)

>

> It needn't be the case that the term is racial or

> national ? an upper middle class government

> minister calling a copper a 'pleb' is

> unacceptable, while a copper calling a minister a

> 'toff' is not.

I see no difference between

A toff calling a copper a pleb and

A copper calling someone a toff

Also calling

A French person a frog is in my mind just as bad as calling a Gypsy a Gyppo

So who is it that needs medication?

[DovertheRoad]

It's you mate. Nobody is saying the baker has broken the law. But IMO use of the term gyppo is derogatory...and shows a lack of respect and decency whatever the context.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Love the following private message I have just read ..

Sigh 😰 Hardly in the spirit of holding a dialogue now is it Pop / Fazer ?

Please leave me alone go away

From: pop9770

To: TheArtfulDogger

Date: 28/10/2016 14:36

unless you have something positive to add leave me alone !

[pop9770]

I'm not your mate I can read between the lines "mate" grey area this.

According to your moral code I'm a thick Frog in need of medication.

As I said double standards.

It would be good if UK gov made a list so it's clear what is and isn't legally acceptable.

That way Dell Boy type Bakers would know if they are breaking a "moral code" or the law on twitter.

[pop9770]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Love the following private message I have just

> read ..

> Sigh 😰 Hardly in the spirit of holding a

> dialogue now is it Pop / Fazer ?

>

> Please leave me alone go away

> From: pop9770

> To: TheArtfulDogger

> Date: 28/10/2016 14:36

>

> unless you have something positive to add leave me

> alone !

You really are intent on goading me and yes I emailed you to ask you to leave me alone unless you have something positive to say. Which you clearly don't you're a troll a bully and intent on inflaming any thread I happen to make perfectly reasonable comments in.

It's clear you're like a playground bully you have no shame and you have no empathy.

Really v sad I feel very sorry for you that you are incapable of leaving me alone quite pathetic really.

Edit to add and add and add

Dialog haha

Go away leave me alone

Add value stop filling these pages with stupid photos and insults

[edcam]

I've been getting some quite weird and insulting private messages from this pop/fazer person too (for daring to have a different opinion to him). A troubled soul, clearly.

[pop9770]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've been getting some quite weird and insulting

> private messages from this pop/fazer person too

> (for daring to have a different opinion to him).

> A troubled soul, clearly.

Yes because like TheArtfulDogger you won't leave me alone you follow me from thread to thread trying to goad and wind me up rather than stick to the subject of the thread you make trolling posts.

I may be a troubled soul ..

You are a bully a pest an annoyance and you will not leave me alone

GO AWAY !!!!

Go follow someone else leave me alone !

[edcam]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> edcam Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I've been getting some quite weird and

> insulting

> > private messages from this pop/fazer person too

> > (for daring to have a different opinion to him).

>

> > A troubled soul, clearly.

>

>

> Yes because like TheArtfulDogger you won't leave

> me alone you follow me from thread to thread

> trying to goad and wind me up rather than stick to

> the subject of the thread you make trolling

> posts.

>

> I may be a troubled soul ..

>

> You are a bully a pest an annoyance and you will

> not leave me alone

>

> GO AWAY !!!!

>

> Go follow someone else leave me alone !

Ironic that you say this when I have repeatedly asked you to stop sending me bizarre private messages. I'm certainly not a bully but if you are going to post such nonsense, I'm not quite sure why you think people won't call you out on it. You seem to provoke the same response from quite a few posters, so perhaps you should have a think about that.

I find it hard to believe that you don't see why using the terms you quote here could be offensive.

Regarding that, I can't say I've been in Ayres Bakers more than a couple of times in the last 20 years but I won't be going there again.

[pop9770]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pop9770 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > edcam Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I've been getting some quite weird and

> > insulting

> > > private messages from this pop/fazer person

> too

> > > (for daring to have a different opinion to

> him).

> >

> > > A troubled soul, clearly.

> >

> >

> > Yes because like TheArtfulDogger you won't

> leave

> > me alone you follow me from thread to thread

> > trying to goad and wind me up rather than stick

> to

> > the subject of the thread you make trolling

> > posts.

> >

> > I may be a troubled soul ..

> >

> > You are a bully a pest an annoyance and you

> will

> > not leave me alone

> >

> > GO AWAY !!!!

> >

> > Go follow someone else leave me alone !

>

>

> Ironic that you say this when I have repeatedly

> asked you to stop sending me bizarre private

> messages. I'm certainly not a bully but if you

> are going to post such nonsense, I'm not quite

> sure why you think people won't call you out on

> it. You seem to provoke the same response from

> quite a few posters, so perhaps you should have a

> think about that.

>

> I find it hard to believe that you don't see why

> using the terms you quote here could be

> offensive.

>

> Regarding that, I can't say I've been in Ayres

> Bakers more than a couple of times in the last 20

> years but I won't be going there again.

What is Ironic is you are incapable of understanding two simple words GO AWAY

You?re someone who just can?t help being a pest and you are a bully because you continue to harass me and follow me from thread to thread in some bizarre game just like a bully!

I sent you one PM asking you to leave me alone and you just don?t get it!!!

GO AWAY leave me alone can?t you see you are goading me and winding me up (you know exactly what you?re doing it?s a game you?re a troll) and at the same time you are spoiling every thread for others by continuing to goad me do you really expect me to accept that?

You try to bully me into silence.

I don?t think Ayres bakers will miss your business.

I also don?t think he believes Gypo is any more insulting that Frog ..

You weird .. you expect everyone to accept your world view and when it is questioned you are incapable of looking at the world from someone else?s viewpoint.

I know that from other threads.

All you do is shutdown the conversation ,,, to me that is unacceptable in an open forum / society.

You need to see that your view isn?t the only view.

I accept your views but disagree they just don?t apply to everyone same goes for my views.

But you are blinkered and can only see the world through your own eyes and questionable morals ..

[rendelharris]

"All you do is shutdown the conversation ,,, to me that is unacceptable in an open forum / society.

You need to see that your view isn?t the only view."

pop/fazer, do you really not see the irony that in telling other people not to respond to your comments if they disagree with you, and going to the extraordinary lengths of PM'ing them to tell them not to comment, you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What counts is the Law, morals help decide those

> laws until they are turned into law then morality

> is open and meaningless in absolute terms.

>

> I asked is it illegal to use the term Gyppo and if

> so why is it not illegal to use the term Frog

> that's a reasonable question!

It's not illegal for one to refer to a poster trying to justify the use of a term that is as clearly derogatory as "chinky" or the n world as batsh1t f**king mental either. Does that mean you won't object to me calling you that?

[Jules-and-Boo]

Pop - is your personal moral code defined by what the Law actually dictates you can and can't do?

Do you not have one defined by your own conscience/ values?

[pop9770]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "All you do is shutdown the conversation ,,, to me

> that is unacceptable in an open forum / society.

>

> You need to see that your view isn?t the only

> view."

>

> pop/fazer, do you really not see the irony that in

> telling other people not to respond to your

> comments if they disagree with you, and going to

> the extraordinary lengths of PM'ing them to tell

> them not to comment, you're doing exactly what

> you're accusing them of?

There is no irony.

In this thread I have been very clear there is no ambiguity.

I don?t want to go over all the details read back.

I have not shut down or shouted down the views of others I have simply asked a question and put forward an alternative view to highlight what I see is a contradiction / biased view.

BrandNewGuy and some others appear to have some double standards I may be wrong but on what they have said I don?t think I am.

Happy to be proven wrong.

I don?t agree with the witch hunt of the Baker as I said I think he believes Gyppo is no worst that Frog again I could be wrong, you?ll need to ask him.

The ?bullies? or what ever you want to call them were not involved in this thread until I made my posts and when they got involved it was to mock and goad me I don?t; think they added anything of relevance maybe a minor comment but mostly their comments were aimed squarely at me.

As for other threads look through you?ll see some weird comments where .. they don?t? have a problem so why do I ? bizarre logic ..

I admit I became angry at times but hey who wouldn?t with a gang following flaming trolling and posting to get a reaction.

I follow forum etiquette I stick to the topic of the thread remain relevant to the tone and subject under discussion and offer my alternative view if I have one I believe is relevant.

Compare that to their goading flaming and opposed the views the misdirection of the thread onto or other subjects .. mainly me .

If you haven't followed their nonsense you may not understand.

I have accepted their views on another thread even though they don?t accept mine it is blatant and they just continue to state the opposite to what is fact.

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pop9770 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

>

> > What counts is the Law, morals help decide

> those

> > laws until they are turned into law then

> morality

> > is open and meaningless in absolute terms.

> >

> > I asked is it illegal to use the term Gyppo and

> if

> > so why is it not illegal to use the term Frog

> > that's a reasonable question!

>

>

> It's not illegal for one to refer to a poster

> trying to justify the use of a term that is as

> clearly derogatory as "chinky" or the n world as

> batsh1t f**king mental either. Does that mean you

> won't object to me calling you that?

I don?t object to you calling me mental or a Frog as I understand it neither term is illegal and I don?t care maybe I should care and contact the Police?

If I was black and you called me a N?re then I believe I could contact the police and according to a telegraph article calling people chavs is also criminal?

I only asked for a link to a GOV list of illegal / criminal terms and so far no one has been able to produce a list.

As I said I don?t think the Baker thinks Gyppo is any different to Frog.

[Jules-and-Boo]

I think it's grey area - freedom of speech dictates uttering the actual word is not illegal but using it can be seen as inciting racial hatred/ harassment etc - which is illegal.

So, really, you should know better. Why use something which you know is offensive, just because you think you can. Because you can't.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

You are being deeply disingenous Fazer. You clearly object very strongly to people doing legal things - otherwise you wouldn't have started PMing people telling them to leave you alone for disageeing with you.

Whether or not a term counts as racist abuse legally is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The question is whether the baker intended "gyppo" as an insult/derogatory term from a moral perspective.

If you don't think it's an insult, and don't think the baker thought it was an insult, why are you getting so worked up? Surely if your view represents the common moral view, then no-one else will care that a handful of people on EDF thought otherwise.

[BrandNewGuy]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BrandNewGuy and some others appear to have some

> double standards I may be wrong but on what they

> have said I don?t think I am.

> Happy to be proven wrong.

I'm not a saint, but I don't have to justify myself to a ranting troll. I won't be replying to any of your guff again.

[pop9770]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pop - is your personal moral code defined by what

> the Law actually dictates you can and can't do?

>

> Do you not have one defined by your own

> conscience/ values?

I value the law doesn't mean I agree with all laws, I'd be happy to fight against bad laws.

It?s sometimes difficult to judge what is and isn't acceptable it appears to change on a yearly basis as decided buy some groups, they change / demonise the use of words which have been used for 100?s of years often with very different meanings.

It appears to me that the Police often don?t know the laws; they apply the law differently to some than to others.

I think we?re going through a very confusing time.

As an example

The government often flout their own laws to suit their own political needs many laws have become meaningless replaced by ?moral? needs.

Look at what has happened in Europe with the migrants and refugees the French have not followed their own or European laws they are not processing people as they should they have failed in their moral duty to the refugees to the benefit of economic migrants. It?s changing now but the damage they have cause is terribly inhumane.

I read this thread and my conscience / values drove me to question those demonising the Baker for using the word Gyppo I thought maybe it?s illegal so wondered is there a list and I wondered is Frog also illegal.

The law is lacking unclear and it appears each of us are left to use our own moral judgement...imho not a good situation... morals conscience and values are mostly linked to religion or similar groups designed to manipulate the masses.

I can guff on and on just as others can guff on and on.

Perception intention and the laws are what should matter to all.

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You are being deeply disingenous Fazer. You

> clearly object very strongly to people doing legal

> things - otherwise you wouldn't have started PMing

> people telling them to leave you alone for

> disageeing with you.

>

> Whether or not a term counts as racist abuse

> legally is completely irrelevant to this

> discussion. The question is whether the baker

> intended "gyppo" as an insult/derogatory term from

> a moral perspective.

>

> If you don't think it's an insult, and don't think

> the baker thought it was an insult, why are you

> getting so worked up? Surely if your view

> represents the common moral view, then no-one else

> will care that a handful of people on EDF thought

> otherwise.

I pm?d them to ask them to leave me alone to stop them hounding me on every post and every comment there?s no law against that.

I?m happy for them to disagree.

And I didn?t want to clutter the forum threads by posting openly.

They decided to make it public as they are the trolls and want to spoil every thread.

I don?t know if the Baker intended to be racist or if he used the term Gypo as BrandNewGuy uses the term Frog Ie he was just being impertinent.

Personally I?d give him the benefit of doubt after all he?s a south London Baker and comes across more like Dell Boy than an educated liberal intellectual.

We can all be sure those who screen grabbed the tweet and made comments on the tweet, branded the Baker guilty of outright racism in their kangaroo court all patting one another on the back in the process.

Shouldn?t they have put his tweet in context and taken his position and background into consideration?

What?s clear to some is invisible to others in their judgement and guffing.