Travellers on Peckham Rye? (Lounged)

[Sue]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Fair enough point, I do feel sorry for travellers

> too, though.

So do I.

Their traditional way of life has been completely wrecked by fairly recent laws.

If there was not so much prejudice against them, there would have been an outcry.

[robbin]

TE44 Wrote:

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> All schools have a system in place for the many

> Children who cannot keep up with an institutional

> Learning, for whatever reason the child has

> difficulties. A different kind of teaching does

> not reflect learning being neither behind or in

> front, it is merely different. I can see where it

> would be difficult for both teacher and pupil,

> when child has been used to learning in a very

> different way. It just seems a shame our

> education

> system make it hard to recognise and welcome

> instead of only seeing a problem.

That sort of liberal handwringing is all very well, but it doesn't necessarily do any favours to the children concerned. In fact, it might well harm them.

You end by suggesting that the system makes it "hard to recognise and welcome instead of only seeing a problem". I'm not sure what that assertion actually means and it appears to be your assumption that it is correct, but whatever be the case I don't quite understand what you suggest might be a solution?

Are you just saying wouldn't it be nice and better if things were better and nicer?

[TE44]

Robin, I think there's more chance of children being harmed going into an environment where they have to deal with people who absolutely believe

and expect a disruptive behaviour soley because of there culture. I felt Uncle Glen was insinuating that. I actually have seen schools where the travelling community have been welcomed and differences shared, albeit not in London. This may be a hard concept for you to understand,

[DaveR]

"This may be a hard concept for you to understand,"

Is it hard to understand that this is incredibly patronising and makes you come across as a complete c0ck?

To what extent should a system with finite resources and established structures be required to change to adapt to the life choices of a minority group? This is a serious question. No one else mentioned disruptive behaviour - this is you reflecting your prejudices onto others.

[Penguin68]

All schools have a system in place for the many Children who cannot keep up with an institutional Learning, for whatever reason the child has difficulties.

It is not that traveller children 'cannot keep up' with institutional learning, it is that they have not had the opportunity to do so. It would do them no service to place them with children who do have learning difficulties, and who need quite different styles of teaching, which may be wholly inappropriate for them. The initial point was made that they were automatically placed in their actual age group, when assessment might suggest they were better placed with children who were younger, but who otherwise needed no additional educational support.

[Jules-and-Boo]

where did this speculation spring from?

Are the children going to local schools?

[TE44]

DaveR Wrote:

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> "This may be a hard concept for you to

> understand,"

>

> Is it hard to understand that this is incredibly

> patronising and makes you come across as a

> complete c0ck?

>

> To what extent should a system with finite

> resources and established structures be required

> to change to adapt to the life choices of a

> minority group? This is a serious question. No

> one else mentioned disruptive behaviour - this is

> you reflecting your prejudices onto others.

Daver, its hard to undedstand its incredibly patronising, because it wasn't.

Its not about asking established structures with finite resources to change for minority groups,

There is many children catogorised into groups, different labels etc. Each could be seen as a minority. Anyway there are many minorities amongst each different group individualist. Im sure uncle glen mentioned disruption, on phone and can't be bothered going from page to page. I would not say I am reflecting my prejudice, although I do have a problem with the education system.

[Penguin68]

I think what was being referred to was the disruptive effect (on teaching) of having children of very different levels of attainment (not capability) being taught together - not that these children were themselves disruptive.

[TE44]

Penguin, I can see what you mean, but the same goes for children moving schools with different teaching

methods, i would imagine ability to manage the teaching offered would be an individual matter.

[Blah Blah]

Most classrooms contain children of mixed abilities and interest though. So this is a bit of a red herring. There are also people in jobs who move frequently and their children too. Do we worry about their levels of school attendance? Is changing school frequently bad for them too?

[binkylilyput]

Yes, a complete red herring.

While modern society has come a long way to address systemic discrimination and casual racism with regards to many groups, unfortunately it is still widely apparent and seemingly acceptable when it comes to travelling communities, as echoed in this thread

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/discriminating-against-gypsies-and-travellers-is-common-across-britain-report-finds-a6919651.html

[rendelharris]

I once taught at a school in the west country which had a small but ever changing proportion of Traveller children, some stopping for a few weeks, some for a few months. They were generally well behaved and their parents took an interest - they were certainly no worse than the "regular" parents and children. However they did mean a lot of extra work as they'd almost inevitably been learning in different ways/learning different subjects at their previous schools, and the extra work needed to bring them into the class inevitably meant a diminution in the amount of attention available for the more settled pupils. It was also very frustrating, as a teacher, to feel one was making good progress and then with virtually no warning to lose a pupil. So, do I support Travellers' children's right to access education - absolutely, would I deny that it can be disruptive to a school, no I wouldn't. Just my personal experience in one school...

[DaveR]

Two posters who are obviously current or former teachers agree that traveller children are disruptive to a school as an inevitable consequence of the lifestyle - two posters who, from what I can see, have never agreed about anything else. No criticism of the lifestyle, or suggestion that that it can't, or shouldn't be done. So maybe not a 'red herring' or discrimination or racism or any of the other frankly stupid, knee-jerk things posted on here in an orgy of self righteous virtue signalling.

[binkylilyput]

I'm not sure that advocating for a welcoming and inclusive society for travelling communities signals an "orgy of self righteous virtue signalling".......but I guess that's an insult that can be thrown at any attempt to redress the balance for the marginalised.

As rendelharris points out, sometimes this can prove challenging. Does that mean that integration and inclusivity should not be a fundamental premise for education (or housing, or health care etc etc)? No, of course not.

Although some posters have suggested that this should only happen if the majority (and more worthy?) do not have to make changes.......

Welcome to my knee-jerking orgy of stupid ideas

[Blah Blah]

I live for the day that you, Dave, can respect a different view without labelling it as stupid or knee jerk. I'm sure you know the difference between hard and anecdotal evidence don't you?

[Blah Blah]

I agree binky. Dave seems to think that traveller children deserve no extra effort, because instead of seeing the life of their parents as a culture that goes back centuries, he sees it as a 'lifestyle choice' instead. It comes from the same place of prejudice that all prejudice against travellers comes from.

What he seems to forget is that teachers already do go an extra mile to make sure that autistic children for example can have the same experience of education as everyone else. I wonder if Dave has a view on the disruption of autism, or he excuses it on the grounds no parent chooses to have an autistic child. So good disruption vs bad disruption then. Children deserving of effort vs children deserving of no effort. It's not a healthy outlook for anyone to have.

[Penguin68]

because instead of seeing the life of their parents as a culture that goes back centuries, he sees it as a 'lifestyle choice' instead.

That's certainly true of Romany travellers (possibly originating in or around the Indus Valley), and to some extent of Irish travellers (itinerant tinsmiths - known as 'tinkers' a name now seen as insulting rather than descriptive) - but it is less true of New Age Travellers - for whom this was a 20th century life-style choice.

[DaveR]

1. uncleglen posts and nobody really reads it properly - instead there's a mass outbreak of pious BS, dismissal

2. rendelharris agrees with uncleglen

3. I point that out.

4. Renewed outbreak of pious BS, this time including "Dave seems to think..." i.e. anyone challenging my worldview can be assumed to hold a whole load of repellent views.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Is the fact of the traveller's childrens' education somehow relevant to them being on the East Dulwich Charter School site?

Are there children in the group that are on the land (which is private and therefore squatted)?

[Blah Blah]

You are too quick to call peoples views stupid Dave, and to belittle those that don't reflect yours. And when called out on it, you just keep going.

[rendelharris]

DaveR Wrote:

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> 1. uncleglen posts and nobody really reads it

> properly - instead there's a mass outbreak of

> pious BS, dismissal

>

> 2. rendelharris agrees with uncleglen

>

> 3. I point that out.

>

> 4. Renewed outbreak of pious BS, this time

> including "Dave seems to think..." i.e. anyone

> challenging my worldview can be assumed to hold a

> whole load of repellent views.

Dave, I didn't agree with uncleglen exactly, he said there was disruption and it was unacceptable: I agreed that from my experience there was disruption and that it made life harder for teachers, I expressed no opinion as to its acceptability. My post was more aimed at those, presumably without teaching experience, who seemed to me to be claiming that traveller children can easily be assimilated into schools and that it was no more challenging than having SEN pupils. That's not my experience but I was not intending to address the wider controversy about the traveller way of life.

[Blah Blah]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> That's certainly true of Romany travellers (possibly originating in or around the Indus Valley), and to some extent > > of Irish travellers (itinerant tinsmiths - known as 'tinkers' a name now seen as insulting rather than descriptive) -

> but it is less true of New Age Travellers - for whom this was a 20th century life-style choice.

There is also the wider question of the value of education. Travelling communities don't live in the same constructs that we do. They have their own economies, and children mostly follow their parents into the same way of life. Their need for a formal education is not always going to be on a par with our kids - which may be anathema to us, but is perfectly ok to them.

[rendelharris]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> There is also the wider question of the value of

> education. Travelling communities don't live in

> the same constructs that we do. They have their

> own economies, and children mostly follow their

> parents into the same way of life. Their need for

> a formal education is not always going to be on a

> par with our kids - which may be anathema to us,

> but is perfectly ok to them.

Good point - but then maybe some form of agreement needs to be reached (no idea how) that this is the case, so that authorities don't force traveller children into temporary solutions for education which they may well feel are useless, and therefore be resentful and disruptive (not my experience as detailed above, but the experience of some colleagues).

[uncleglen]

No-one was ever told travellers children were going to be in their class so there was no contingency plans. I only found out about the children turning up because I had to report one for persistent bad behaviour, failure to do any work, and attitude to other students.

In a year 11 class there was a pupil whose parents were market traders and he was absent due to the Xmas rush. The school would not tolerate his absence, but the travellers' have special consideration on absence. The graphs in this paper are interesting, as is the text, but there is a lot of it.

http://www.equalrightstrust.org/ertdocumentbank/ERR8_Brian_Foster_and_Peter_Norton.pdf

[DaveR]

"You are too quick to call peoples views stupid Dave"

"Dave seems to think that traveller children deserve no extra effort, because instead of seeing the life of their parents as a culture that goes back centuries, he sees it as a 'lifestyle choice' instead. It comes from the same place of prejudice that all prejudice against travellers comes from."

"I wonder if Dave has a view on the disruption of autism, or he excuses it on the grounds no parent chooses to have an autistic child."

Asked and answered, as far as I can see.

And to be clear, I have no prejudice against travellers, people with autism or even people who post stupid things on internet forums.