Late night licensing on Lordship Lane

[KalamityKel]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> I notice that in the liscensing small print that

> any person over 14 year of age is allowed to be in

> the bar (not buying alcohol of course)...that

> seems like an open invitation to underage drinking

> to me. They are supposed to ask for ID if someone

> 'looks' to be underage. But all they need is for

> an adult to buy alcohol at the bar for them. That

> I think is something that can be taken up with the

> council....to restrict the hours that 14-18 year

> olds can be on the premises - after all should any

> 14 year old be in a bar at 2am in the morning?

This is standard licensing and only applicable to those who are attending a full sit down meal and during serving time only... I didn't think the adventure bar offered full meals in any case?

It simply means that for children who reside at the premises as a means for access/exit (from A to B).

[DJKillaQueen]

112 - No person under fourteen shall be in the bar of the licensed premises during the permitted hours unless one of the following applies a.He is the child of the holder of the premises licence b.He resides in the premises, but is not employed there c.He is in the bar solely for the purpose of passing to or from some part of the premises which is not a bar and to and from which there is no other convenient means of access or egress d.The bar is in railway refreshment rooms or other premises constructed, f itted and intended to be used bona fide for any purpose to which the holding of the licence is ancilla. In this condition "bar" includes any place exclusively or mainly used for the consumption of intoxicating liquor. But an area is not a bar when it is u sual for it to be, and it is, set apart for the service of tablemeals and alcohol is only sold or supplied to persons as ancillary to their table meals.

I think that pretty clearly says that any person 14 or over can be in the bar at any time. There are seperate clauses for the sale of alcohol itself (to persons over 18 only). It is part of the terms of the license being applied for and means that if a group of 14 years olds what to go to that bar late on a Friday night, they can (although the management reserve the right to refuse entry).

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> 112 - No person under fourteen shall be in the bar

> of the licensed premises during the permitted

> hours unless one of the following applies a.He is

> the child of the holder of the premises licence

> b.He resides in the premises, but is not employed

> there c.He is in the bar solely for the purpose of

> passing to or from some part of the premises which

> is not a bar and to and from which there is no

> other convenient means of access or egress d.The

> bar is in railway refreshment rooms or other

> premises constructed, f itted and intended to be

> used bona fide for any purpose to which the

> holding of the licence is ancilla. In this

> condition "bar" includes any place exclusively or

> mainly used for the consumption of intoxicating

> liquor. But an area is not a bar when it is u sual

> for it to be, and it is, set apart for the service

> of tablemeals and alcohol is only sold or supplied

> to persons as ancillary to their table meals.

>

> I think that pretty clearly says that any person

> 14 or over can be in the bar at any time. There

> are seperate clauses for the sale of alcohol

> itself (to persons over 18 only). It is part of

> the terms of the license being applied for.

really?

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes really. Here is the full list of conditions to the license being applied for.

127 - Alcohol shall not be sold or supplied unless it is paid for before or at the time when it is sold or supplied, except alcohol sold or supplied: a.With and for consumption at a meal supplied at the same time, consumed with the meal and paid for together w ith the meal; b.For consumption by a person residing in the premises or his guest and paid for together with his accommodation; c.To a canteen or mess.

112 - No person under fourteen shall be in the bar of the licensed premises during the permitted hours unless one of the following applies a.He is the child of the holder of the premises licence b.He resides in the premises, but is not employed there c.He is in the bar solely for the purpose of passing to or from some part of the premises which is not a bar and to and from which there is no other convenient means of access or egress d.The bar is in railway refreshment rooms or other premises constructed, f itted and intended to be used bona fide for any purpose to which the holding of the licence is ancilla. In this condition "bar" includes any place exclusively or mainly used for the consumption of intoxicating liquor. But an area is not a bar when it is u sual for it to be, and it is, set apart for the service of tablemeals and alcohol is only sold or supplied to persons as ancillary to their table meals.

110 - No statutory regulations for music and dancing shall apply so as to require any licence for the provision in the premises of public entertainment by the reproduction of wireless (including television) broadcasts or of programmes included in any programme service (within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990) other than a sound or television broadcasting service, or of public entertainment by way of music and singing only which is produced solely by the reproduction of recorded sound is permitted.

111 - This licence provides for the provision of private music and dancing entertainment that is promoted for private gain;

841 - The rear garden area is not to be used by customers.

840 - No open drinks containers to be taken outside of the premises.

487 - The responsible person shall ensure that free tap water is provided on request to customers where it is reasonably available.

488 - (1) The premises licence holder or club premises certificate holder shall ensure that an age verification policy applies to the premises in relation to the sale or supply of alcohol. (2). The policy must require individuals who appear to the responsible person to be under 18 years of age (or such older age as may be specified in the policy) to produce on request, before being served alcohol, identification bearing their photograph, date of birth and a holographic mark.

489 - The responsible person shall ensure that - (a) Where any of the following alcoholic drinks is sold or supplied for consumption on the premises (other than alcoholic drinks sold or supplied having been made up in advance ready for sale or supply in a securely closed container) it is available to customers in the following measures - (i) Beer or cider: 1/2 pint; (ii) Gin, rum, vodka or whisky: 25 ml or 35 ml; and (iii) Still wine in a glass: 125 ml; and (b) Customers are made aware of the availability of these measures

485 - (1) The responsible person shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that staff on relevant premises do not carry out, arrange or participate in any irresponsible promotions in relation to the premises. (2) In this paragraph, an irresponsible promotion means any one or more of the following activities, or substantially similar activities, carried on for the purpose of encouraging the sale or supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises in a manner which carries a significant risk of leading or contributing to crime and disorder, prejudice to public safety, public nuisance, or harm to children (a) games or other activities which require or encourage, or are designed to require, encourage, individuals to (i) drink a quantity of alcohol within a time limit (other than to drink alcohol sold or supplied on the premises before the cessation of the period in which the responsible person is authorised to sell or supply alcohol), or (ii) drink as much alcohol as possible (whether within a time limit or otherwise); (b) provision of unlimited or unspecified quantities of alcohol free or for a fixed or discounted fee to the public or to a group defined by a particular characteristic (other than any promotion or discount available to an individual in respect of alcohol for consumption at a table meal, as defined in section 159 of the Act); © provision of free or discounted alcohol or any other thing as a prize to encourage or reward the purchase and consumption of alcohol over a period of 24 hours or less; (d) provision of free or discounted alcohol in relation tot he viewing on the premises of a sporting event, where that provision is dependent on- (i) the outcome of a race, competition or other event or process; or (ii) the likelihood of anything occurring or not occurring; (e) selling or supplying alcohol in association with promotional posters or flyers on, or in the vicinity of, the premises which can reasonably be considered to condone, encourage or glamorise anti-social behaviour or to refer to the effects of drunkenness in any favourable manner.

486 - The responsible person shall ensure that no alcohol is dispensed directly by one person into the mouth of another (other than where that person is unable to drink without assistance by reason of a disability).

346 - That all CCTV footage shall be kept for a period of thirty one (31) days and shall, upon request, be made available to Officers of the Police and Council.

347 - That a Personal Licence Holder is on the premises and on duty at all times that intoxicating liquor is supplied.

344 - That suitable notices shall be displayed and announcements made requesting people to leave the premises in a quiet and order manner so as not to disturb local residents.

345 - That CCTV system to be installed at the premises and be maintained iin good working order and to be continually recording at all times the premises are in use under the licence. The CCTV system must be capable of capturing an image of every person who enters the premises.

342 - That signs shall be displayed in the entrance foyer to the premises that state "Drugs Free Zone" and "No Search No Entry. Management reserves the right to refuse entry"

343 - That all matters relating to drugs shall be in accordance with the Metropolitan Police Best Practice Guide on the handling of drugs in pubs and clubs.

341 - That they are provided with hand held metal detection unit in order to ensure that searches can be carried out at random, and mechanical counting devices to ensure that the maximum accommodation limit of the premises is not exceeded.

340 - That SIS registered Door Supervisor shall be employed at all times after 22.00hours until the terminal hour that the premises are use under this licence on days where the terminal hour is after 00.30 hours (covering the late night opening only).

109 - Alcohol shall not be sold or supplied except during permitted hours. In this condition permitted hours are stated in part 1 but also include; a.On Good Friday, 12 noon to 10.30.p.m. b.On Christmas Day, 12 noon to 3.00.p.m. and 7.00.p.m. to 10.30.p.m. c.On New Year's Eve from the end of permitted hours on New Year's Eve to the start of permitted hours on the following day (or, if there are no permitted hours on the following day, midnight on 31st December). The above restrictions do not pr ohibit; i)During the first twenty minutes after the above hours the consumption of the alcohol on the premises; ii)During the first twenty minutes after the above hours, the taking of the alcohol from the premises unless the alcohol is supplied or taken in an open vessel; iii)During the first thirty minutes after the above hours the consumption of the alcohol on the premises by persons taking meals there if the alcohol was supplied for consumption as ancillary to the meals; iv)Consumption of the alcoh ol on the premises or the taking of sale or supply of alcohol to any person residing in the licensed premises; v)The ordering of alcohol to be consumed off the premises, or the dispatch by the vendor of the alcohol so ordered; vi)The sale of alcohol to a trader or club for the purposes of the trade or club; vii)The sale or supply of alcohol to any canteen or mess, being a canteen in which the sale or supply of alcohol is carried out under the authority of the Secretary of State or an authorised mess of members of Her Majesty's naval, military or air forces; viii)The taking of alcohol from the premises by a person residing there; or ix)The supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises to any private friends of a person residing there who are bona fide entertained by him at his own expense, or the consumption of alcohol by the persons so supplied; or x)The supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises to persons employed there for the purposes of the business carried on by the holder of the l icence, or the consumption of alcohol so supplied, if the alcohol is supplied at the expense of their employer or the person carrying on, or in charge of, the business on the premises.

101 - Every supply of alcohol under the Premises Licence must be made, or authorised by, a person who holds a Personal Licence.

100 - No supply of alcohol may be made under the Premises Licence - a.At a time when there is no Designated Premises Supervisor in respect of the Premises Licence; or b.At a time when the Designated Premises Supervisor does not hold a Personal Licence or his Personal Licence is suspended.

[KalamityKel]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> 112 - No person under fourteen shall be in the bar

> of the licensed premises during the permitted

> hours unless one of the following applies a.He is

> the child of the holder of the premises licence

> b.He resides in the premises, but is not employed

> there c.He is in the bar solely for the purpose of

> passing to or from some part of the premises which

> is not a bar and to and from which there is no

> other convenient means of access or egress d.The

> bar is in railway refreshment rooms or other

> premises constructed, f itted and intended to be

> used bona fide for any purpose to which the

> holding of the licence is ancilla. In this

> condition "bar" includes any place exclusively or

> mainly used for the consumption of intoxicating

> liquor. But an area is not a bar when it is u sual

> for it to be, and it is, set apart for the service

> of tablemeals and alcohol is only sold or supplied

> to persons as ancillary to their table meals.

>

> I think that pretty clearly says that any person

> 14 or over can be in the bar at any time. There

> are seperate clauses for the sale of alcohol

> itself (to persons over 18 only). It is part of

> the terms of the license being applied for and

> means that if a group of 14 years olds what to go

> to that bar late on a Friday night, they can

> (although the management reserve the right to

> refuse entry).

It doesn't say anything of the sort! it clearly says "no person" and then with the standard exceptions.

It is a standard part of most licensing to premises that have a bar and sell alcohol.

Selective reading and misinterpretation could damage an objection...

[pk]

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> DJKillaQueen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> It doesn't say anything of the sort! it clearly

> says "no person" and then with the standard

> exceptions.

>

> It is a standard part of most licensing to

> premises that have a bar and sell alcohol.

>

> Selective reading and misinterpretation could

> damage an objection...

to be fair it does say no person UNDER 14 so that condition doesn't prohibit 14 and overs - but that doesn't in itself mean that over 14's are allowed other than as the law otherwise permits (dunno what it allows

let's also not forget that plenty of pubs do allow under 14's at certain times - have you lot not been to the Herne?

[Easties EL]

Bottom line is Lordship Lane at night attracts young people to drink. Young people like to get drunk, be sick, fight, get laid, urinate on streets corners, eat kebabs and greasy fried battered farm chicken, dipsose their rubbish on the street for foxes and rats to feed on.

Time we get over it. Changing rules and laws won't change a thing. LL turns into a shit ole after 10pm just like any other highstreet with pubs and bars. It's British culture. culture to get drunk cause we're bored and think it's hip to chase skirt and get drunk, then eat fatty high sats food to top off an evening. If Brits were more relaxed and chilled out then I guess things would be different.

Have I ever been drunk, vomited on the street, been in a fights, caused a scene, littered, urinated on someones front garden? Do I sound like a ****? Have you?

[silverfox]

ear kebabs? and squirrel at Franklins? The place is going to the dogs.

[Easties EL]

I wouldn't be suprised that there is ear in a kebab. Do you know what is in your kebab after 7 pints? Human remains have been found in dodgy kebabs across the capital, including dog food, rat poo. If you want a proper kebab, best going to Turkey.(tu)(However the kebabs on Lordship Lane are top notch)

[silverfox]

Couldn't afford the taxi fare after the cost of seven pints on Lordship Lane

[HonaloochieB]

Easties EL Wrote:

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> I wouldn't be suprised that there is ear in a

> kebab. Do you know what is in your kebab after 7

> pints? Human remains have been found in dodgy

> kebabs across the capital, including dog food, rat

> poo. If you want a proper kebab, best going to

> Turkey.(tu)

That's why I never touch the Donna.

[TheePope]

>

> However, in Cerne Abbas, we are insulated from

> this and are all safely tucked up in bed by

> midnight.

Yes, but you still have to put up with that awful graffiti on the hill!

[DulwichFox]

Easties EL Wrote:

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If you want a proper kebab, best going to

> Turkey.(tu)

I studied Turkish for 3 years but I am not fluent

I have visited many destinations in S.W Turkey First time 15 years ago before it got popular.

Then there were kebab stalls everywhere.

Last time I was in Mamaris, there had been a clean up and the Street sellers and stalls selling 'D?ner Kebapi'

had all dissappeared. Doner Kebab is hard to find on the street.

D?ner comes from the verb D?nmek to turn. So Doner Kebab is just a Turning Kebab.

[silverfox]

Turns my stomach

[DJKillaQueen]

Selective reading and misinterpretation could damage an objection...

Which is why I posted the conditions in entirity Kalamity...nothing selective at all. There is no stipulation as to where 14-18 years olds may or may not go....so technically there is no requirement for door staff to refuse entry to that age group nor is there any requirement to not allow them in the bar area. Given that some posters have claimed that underage drinking takes place at the premises (I don't know if that's true or not) I simply make the point that if you allow underage people into a bar with the onus only on bar staff not to sell alcohol to them, then it doesn't take Einstein to work out that adults could easily buy alcohol for them instead.

There are lots of bars that don't allow anyone under 18 or 21 even into their premises - it's a good way to make sure you can't be accused of underage drinking. And yes lots of pubs allow 14 years olds in when accompanied by adults, usually to eat. That's sensible. But there is no sense in allowing 14 year olds into a bar til 2am. So maybe it's time to change those 'standard' licensing conditions.

As for anti-social behaviour. Residents should never have to put up with that. Just because some idiotic British people vomit and so on doesn't mean we should ever get used to it. Bars could refuse to serve people who are idiotically drunk (and some do) but often they don't because all they care about is the profit (which is the only reason for the licence application after all). On the continent I have regularly seen people refused service once bar staff think they've had enough (because yes, in some countries people get as drunk as us Brits) and why? Because the bar takes repsonsibility for the behaviour that happens outside the premises as much as inside. Here many bars take no responsibility once they chuck people out.

I don't personally know much about The Adventure Bar, the people that go there, or those that live nearby...but I know that I wouldn't be happy with being next door to a bar that suddenly opens till 2.30 am on a Thursday night, nor would I be happy with anyone urinating or vomitting in my garden (if I had one). So find the lack of sympathy for some of those affected in those ways on here a bit mystifying.

[monniemae]

I suggest moving to 1953 where it's safe and there are standards about this kind of thing.

[KalamityKel]

I'm guessing the mentioning of the under 14yr old bit could be in place as maybe there are children on site (on the premises not in the bar) and it is there for their protection as the licensing act requires?

I've seen a fair number of application forms incomplete or have restrictions mentioned that bare no relevance to the business. Sometimes it is there to cover anything that may become an issue. Remember this is a variation of their current license which may have other restrictions already in place.

I certainly don't read it as an open invitation for ages 14-17 to come along get drunk and have a "good time".

[DJKillaQueen]

It all depends on what policy the bar operates under. Do they let 14-17 year olds in at the door? Does anyone go/see there enough to know if that's the case?

There are four criteria under which an opposition can be lodged;

1. The prevention of crime and disorder

2. Public safety

3. The prevention of nuisance

4. The protection of children from harm

- anything else will not be considered -

So anti-social behaviour - including noise would be a ground for opposing the licence under the prevention of nuisance. This certainly could be sucessful in denying the extended hours on a Thursday, as it is midweek - and I would expect (from experience) if there is enough opposition, it would be successful on those grounds.

The issue of Sunday might be a bit more tricky because 12.30 am is not the same as 2.30am but again there might be a case for arguing for an earlier closing time. In any case I'd advise those residents who want to oppose to look at what licenses (opening/ closing times) other bars in the vicinity operate under. If The Adventure Bar is applying for something not common for that area then it could be argued that the later closing times would be 'additional' noise and nuisance.

And make the neighbouring residents aware of the application. A letter of oppostion with a supporting petition would be recognised as a strong opposition (just make sure that everyone signing the petition has read the letter and is signing as verification of having read and supporting the contents).

[RosieH]

Easties EL Wrote:

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Do you know what is in your kebab after 7

> pints? Human remains have been found in dodgy

> kebabs across the capital, including dog food, rat

> poo.

What kind of frankenmonster "human" is made up of dog food and rat poo? I don't want to be friends with them, they would not smell so good...

[PipW]

If anybody is thinking of writing to the council (you can email them too at [email protected]) this might be useful. I think the reasons for objecting on prevention of nuisance grounds are quite clear. However, you could also object on prevention of crime and disorder grounds.

According to Metropolitan Police figures, reported crime in the two sub-wards at the north end of Lordship Lane, where the Adventure bar is situated, is dramatically higher than in any of the neighbouring sub-wards - as much as five times as high in some cases - and they are the only sub-wards where crime is on the rise.

In sub-ward E01003953 the Metropolitan Police cited 19 notifiable incidents in May 2010, going up to 26 notifiable incidents in June 2010 the latest month for which figures are currently available. In sub-ward E01003952 there were 22 notifiable incidents in May, up to 23 in June.

These figures are available on the Met Police's website - have a look on http://maps.met.police.uk/. Compare the two sub-wards with all the neighbouring ones and you'll see that there is a significant problem.

Presumably extending the licensing hours of the Adventure bar - and encouraging the Boho bar to follow suit - would only make this worse.

[silverfox]

I blame the rise in anti-social behaviour referred to by PipW above on the ED forum campaign to get Foxtons to turn off their lights at nights. It's well known dark dinghy lighting attracts ne'er do wells.

Hope the new shop to replace the video shop has illuminations to match Blackpool.

[James Plymouth]

To the negatives in the group i think you all need to grow up. Fighting screaming and vomiting, please, and every weekend? Adventure had their trial period of 2am finishing and it worked, you making it sound like a bad day in beirut. It's on the lane, out of the way and unless you live with 5 seconds on that place i doubt quite highly that this is going to cause any real bother. If people want a drink till 2, let them, and since when did Dulwich become so bloody high and mighty, i absolutely love this area and the occasional 2am finish is fine by me. Do we really have to worry about this? If it's vomit you are worried about give me a call and i'll come and clean it up myself.

[DJKillaQueen]

Everyone is entitled to have their view. I'll happilly bring a bunch of louts round to outside your house to vomit, scream, fight and throw up three nights a week at 2am if you like. You might then be more respectful of the views of those who really ARE affected.

'Grow up' indeed....

[James Plymouth]

By all means, because clearly you and all the other pathetic people ALL live on the lane and are all going to lose sleep over this, lets ask the police and see whether they have had to be called to all these supposed 'disruptions'. Yes you are right about people having their opinions, it's great we can all find somewhere to talk about all the really important things that are going to decimate our everyday lives, i suppose you lot all contribute to charity too. Is this the only thing disrupting your lives? I hope they leave a traffic cone shoved with dog mess in your prized magnolias.

[DJKillaQueen]

oooh name calling says more about you than us - and I don't live anywhere near the Adventure Bar by the way.

Can't stand rude people....