Prams, number 63 bus and aggressive driver!

[Ann]

Don't get me wrong you have all my sympathy, I just think sometimes the type of prams are a little innappropriate for public transport. When my children were young if you didn't fold the buggy you couldn't get on, some of the more modern prams don't look as if they could fold at all.

[civilservant]

I'm with Ann on this one. I'm sorry that you had a rough time, and the driver might just be an ornery git/gitess. But you don't say what make your pram/pushchair is, and that counts for a lot.

I commuted up to Central London and back five days a week with a toddler and a MacLaren from when she was 7 months until she started school (no local nursery places!) by train, Tube and bus. Sometimes I could leave the pushchair unfolded and sometimes I had to fold it up - that was part of the deal and you just accepted that. But I fully expected that if I was carrying the baby, I was entitled to a seat and felt no qualms about asking for one if necessary.

We've stood in vain at bus-stops while empty buses whizzed past, and we've been refused entry onto buses unless I folded the pushchair up, so I think I might just be entitled to comment. But even I feel very peeved indeed when people wheel their massive Bugaboos/Quinnys/Mamas'n'Papas/Graco tractors on and then expect everyone else to stand aside or squash up!

[ClareC]

The bus was empty other than one chap that got on the same time. We were travelling at a quiet time (2.30pm).

Make and model of buggy is irrelevant given the circumstances, no one needed to squash up!

It was the buggy having wider wheels at the back than the front (as is common with many buggies) that was problematic, not the size/width of pram itself.

Is it actually possible to fold a pram and hold a young baby at the same time?

[civilservant]

Yes, I agree, it does look as if you were unlucky with your bus driver.

And yes, it is possible - I've done it many times. I doubt that you can with any old pushchair, though, Maclarens are designed to fold up easily. The story is that the inventor designed a pushchair that his daughter - who'd just had a baby - could fold with one hand. The trick is to use a push-pull action with just one hand and foot.

[ClareC]

Def not possible with mine, unless you happened to have a sling :-( Frame folds (Non umbrella) but you do need to remove pram top which doesn't fold.

Def very unlucky with driver, he intentionally made what should have been an easy journey difficult. He really was a nasty piece of work.

Buggies are def like shoes...... there is not one that fits all of the wish list!!

[Belle]

yep mine is Maclaren but my son is impossibly wriggly - I can just about manage the one hand fold in an environment like an airport where you might have a bit of time/help, plus nowadays my son can walk so can safely put him down for a minute - but much trickier on bus I find. I do totally accept it's necessary at times though Civil Servant as you say - I just find it easier to get off the bus at that stage and wait for another. My son won't sit on my lap for more than a few seconds really.

[civilservant]

ClaireC, I didn't mean to sound judgemental:'( - I should have added that it's hard enough to manage a baby, a bag, a pram and whatever as well as oneself without having to put up with a bus driver being beastly and unprofessional on top of it all. I do hope he was a one-off, and that you never have to put up with it again.

[alieh]

I had the joy of encountering this particular 63 driver on Saturday - I'm sure it must be him. We asked to get on the back and he snarled "No!" (bus was also empty, we were getting on at the second stop on the route). So we got on the front anyway and my husband was trying to touch in his Oyster card, which didn't seem to be working, and the driver shouted "I've told you 20 times that the card reader isn't working. If you weren't so worried about your pushchair maybe you would have heard me." Umm, okay. He then proceeded to scream out the window at a driver in a car beside us "You f&*(ing idiot...", etc., etc.

Pleasant journey!

I've met him before and had the same problem about getting on through the back doors and his explanation for not letting me was "what if there was a fire?" When I asked what about if there was a fire with a wheelchair on the bus, he just replied with his standard snarl.

I do think that the underlying problem is that many people want to judge parents that have big "4X4" prams. The reality is that Maclarens/other umbrella-style pushchairs are the only buggies that will fit through the aisle on the new bus design and that fold easily. Personally, I don't like taking my Maclaren for a full day out - it tips over when you hang anything on the handles, is a pain to push, isn't as comfy for baby napping on the go, etc. People with buggies other than Maclarens, or with two in a buggy (like a Phil and Teds), newborns, etc. should still be able to get on the bus when the space isn't being used by a wheelchair or other buggies. I don't see what the problem is with opening the back doors on an empty bus and/or keeping the design of the old buses which were no problem for all buggies to get through.

[ClareC]

alieh, def call the number above and make a complaint. If it is the same driver (certainly sounds like it), the complaints will be on his record and appropriate training given.

I have purposely not described the chap as I didn't want to start a witch hunt, however, a number of people have PM'd me and all the descriptions match...... Certainly sounds as though there is one driver of the 63 that hates parents/prams and takes pleasure from being nasty and difficult.

[ClareC]

Worth adding the garage were not aware of the problems the new design causes. If enough people call the 'policy' will be relaxed on these type buses.

[alieh]

I will do, ClareC. Thanks for putting up the number.

If it makes anyone who has encountered this driver feel any better, it appears that he hates all human beings so we shouldn't take it personally!

And I will mention the design of the new buses too. It is just that one pole that needs to be moved by about 3 cm and it would be no problem.

[esme]

...my pram doesn't fold as it's flat carrycot til he's 6 months, i think it's just the pushchairs that actually fold up BUT bearing in mind most have to lug around food shopping and countless bits n bobs for baby sometimes you just can't fold them up. i agree with above post, most of the time is rush hour in london let's face it and sometimes there is the odd occasion you can't help but get on a bus in peak travelling time. i know years ago stripy folding buggies were the norm but nowadays it's all change and even if you fold it the luggage rack is often full of bags so it's no win really. glad it's summer and i can walk most places, dreading winter as i guess it will be the sling and sore shoulders!!

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I have a maclaren and it is still not easy at all to get baby out, grab my handbag, changing bag, his toys and blanket, and then fold it down whilst making sure it is locked, and then somehow grab everything and get on the bus? Impossible. You need two people.

Years ago most buses had conductors on them, so they would help you and stop the bus whilst you get on with baby etc. Babies and buggies are obviously bug bears for a lot of people.

[elderflower]

civilservant Wrote:

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>

>

> We've stood in vain at bus-stops while empty buses

> whizzed past, and we've been refused entry onto

> buses unless I folded the pushchair up, so I think

> I might just be entitled to comment. But even I

> feel very peeved indeed when people wheel their

> massive Bugaboos/Quinnys/Mamas'n'Papas/Graco

> tractors on and then expect everyone else to stand

> aside or squash up!

I think make of pram is completely relevent and personally if the adjustment stops people taking massive prams on the bus then good! Public transport is just that public not a big taxi for one and pram. People loading up bugaboo chams and quinny buzz etc on the bus take up the room for their one pram instead of sharing the ride with two or three prams. Why even get on the bus with a pram you can't fold up. being able to push your pram on the bus is a kind extra, I still think small and prepared is polite.

Big Prams on the bus is rude and selfish. It shows disregard to the other passengers rolling over toes and its rude to other mums who need to get from a to b too.

If you can't fold up your pram on the bus then but have to pull it apart then it is too big and you need to stick to your car or get a bus friendly pram.

[Fuschia]

whats your advice, elderflower, to those of us with twins?

[alieh]

Or those of us without cars?

[elderflower]

If you don't have a car then like me and thousands of others either pat yourself on the back for having made a greener choice or accept your place on the social ladder and show some thought in the situation you are in. These massive prams are not a necessity. If you have a car then you have that choice, if you have to take the bus then you need to be appropriately equipped to deal with that. It costs more money to buy the big pram vs a pushchair. People who don't think about the getting the bus aspect or if they can even fold up their pushchair but the complain the buses are too small. It is a relatively new thing wheeling your pram on a bus. It is also not a necessity. Its a modern luxury. The space is there for wheelchairs in the first place and mums have leapt in and used it. Its nice and lovely that we get to do that now but there was a system where you had to fold up your pushchair and get ready to sit on the bus with your baby. Thats why there used to be the race to have the most compact chair for the sake of travel. I looked at a bugaboo chameleon when pram shopping and instantly saw it was too big for me to take on a bus and I couldn't fold it up with a baby under my arm. Two basic and crucial points for taking public transport in london. So no, no sympathy for SUV prams. If you have twins then you need twice the space and are probably more likely to be put out by 3 lots of pram space being taken up by the one SUV style pram. My gripe is clearly the problem of people complaining about the lack of space when they are trying to drive a beast of a pram up an aisle. Thought seems lacking in the equation.

Also fuschia, I am a twin. My little brother and sister are also twins who are 20 months younger than me. My mum used to take all 4 of us on the bus with a maclaren twin plus toddler add on seats when we were 6 and 26 months old by herself and she had to fold up the chair.

[Helen GV]

well, luckily for those of us using public transport these days there IS enough room for two or three buggies to fit in the space provided on buses for a wheelchair user, and we are not always required to fold them down. I'm sure that your mum would have appreciated the space had it been available. I do not see why I should apologise for taking the space allocated just because it hasn't always been there.

I have to wrangle my p&t's sometimes to manoeuvre into place, but this normally only causes inconvenience to the other pram owner. It would also be minimised by the driver just allowing me onto the bus via the back door in the first place.

[civilservant]

I don't drive either, and depend on the courtesy of other public transport users, including those who are pushing prams. If you've got twins, fine, you need an appropriate pram, but that doesn't mean it's got to be huge. An over-large pram on public transport is definitely a discourtesy to everyone else. The only valid reason for sticking those extra big wheels and ever more leaf-springs on a pram is to cushion a baby that is being walked along the street, not a baby that is being driven along on a bus.

This thread started with a complaint about a rude bus-driver. We'd be so much more justified in denouncing him if we could all swear hand on heart that we are all considerate users of public transport.

A final thought - with a wry smile, I remember the pro-Routemaster campaign aimed at keeping the vile bendy buses off our streets. The debate on this thread would have been purely academic in the days of the Routemaster!

[Moos]

Earlier in the thread, the absence of a conductor was commented upon. In the days of conductors, they used to help people with bulky shopping, folding pushchairs and so on, and the driver would wait for the conductor's signal before moving off. On my bus to work I seldom get to a seat before the bus lurches off, and I'm not carrying a baby and a folded buggy. I don't blame mothers for wanting to keep their babies in a pram, it's just a lot safer and quicker, and people are so quick to sigh and roll their eyes when someone holds up the bus.

Any call for mutual consideration and courtesy should be applauded and taken to heart, especially for city-dwellers who live cheek by jowl. We should always think about whether we can do more for others, be prepared, and be thoughtful of others' perspective. However, I am also not sure that it's reasonable to ask bus-convenience to be the primary factor in selecting a pram: it's unlikely to be where the pram spends most of its time.

[alieh]

Just one final point which seems to be missed, and which someone else raised above...if you don't have a car and rely on buses and your buggy to do all your shopping/chores, you are likely to have the buggy full of groceries (and baby!) and therefore not be able to fold it, even if it is a Maclaren type. If a bus is already carrying a wheelchair or 2-3 other buggies, then I am happy to wait for another one. But if there is an open space, I don't see what I shouldn't be able to hop on the back doors and wheel the buggy into the space.

I get that people hate "SUV prams", but the rear wheels of the Bugaboo strollers are only 3" wider than those of a Maclaren so it's really not that much of a difference.

[expat]

That is parking the buggy under the sign saying 'Buggies may have to be folded on busy busses' ? Not that I ever saw anybody fold a buggy no matter how busy the bus is.

[Keef]

I do agree to a point that some prams are stupidly large. We were given a Greco travel system pram when our daughter was first born, and it was like a tank. No need for it (we didn't use it for long).

Regarding bus conductors, I agree that it was good when they were about. But, the routemasters wre not exactly spacious, and there certainly wasn't a space to have a pram (unless folded and kept in the little area under the stairs). Moos makes a good point though, drivers can't wait to pull away from stops, and it can be very dangerous, especially when trying to hold a little one.

[beaver14uk]

Nigel - the stupid name for him on here is alive and well and still working on the 185

ClareC Wrote:

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> Must admit I rarely use buses these days, tend to

> walk everywhere within reason. The driver did get

> off at Peckham Library so was obviously close to

> having his break, the ridiculous part was that it

> took longer for him to wait for me to fold the

> buggy etc than it would have done for me to board

> at the other doors!

>

> Maybe it was the infamous Nigel ;-)

[beaver14uk]

The problems in many locations can be bad parking preventing you pulling in properly to the kerb. Although, I appreciate this is not always the case and some drivers are clearly not as good as others. As for street furniture i.e. bins these seem to be placed sometimes in the most inconvenient places hindering bus drivers at stops.

edanna Wrote:

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> Wheelchairs always go through the back door

> because that's where the ramp comes down. Use the

> bus quite alot, though not the 63, and it's

> normally fine. What bugs me is the way drivers

> often stop miles from the kerb, or with a lamppost

> or bin right in the middle of where you need to

> get off.