Prams, number 63 bus and aggressive driver!

[ClareC]

Anyone else found the bus design different to the other double deckers and preventing prams getting on?

A friend and I caught the 63 today, having boarded and touched in on the (entirely empty) bus, I found there is a bar at the beginning of the buggy /wheelchair section which has a bend near the floor making the aisle too narrow in that one part (where the bar met the floor)to get the back wheels of the pram though and therefore preventing access to the wheelchair /pram section. This is not there on the 40 / 176 or 185 (first time I have caught the 63).

I reversed and asked the driver to open the midddle door so we could get on there instead (other side of bar), him having witnessed the problem. He insisted I either get off or fold the buggy (with sleepy 6 month baby in). The bus was empty, !!!!

Fortunately my friend's pram did just get through the gap so she was able to hold her pram and my baby whilst I folded my pram (doesn't actually fold, had to go through rigmoroul of taking pram top off of base and then separately folding base etc).

The driver was pretty aggressive and totally unreasonable (totally unprovoked), his attitiude appeared entirely uncalled for. I could understand if the bus was busy, or if there were aleady two buggies or a wheelchair on there (in which case I wouldnt have boarded) but the bus had no passengers whatsoever save one chap who got on at the same time as us!!

Has anyone else experienced this? I am just grateful my friend was with me, I was really shocked and taken aback. If this had happened when I was alone I would have been quite upset by it, as it was I was just pretty shocked.

Anyone experienced problems on this bus?

[????]

I bet this thread ends up with a whole load of bus drivers slagging us all off again whilst claiming they care about their customers....but not the arrogant, yuppie ones with babies, who weren't here in the 60s etc...that's what happened on the Nigel thread.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

LOL your sense of humour is great Quids!

Clare, I am so sorry that you had problems with the bus, it is very disheartening when that happens. I have only ever got on the 12 and 40 with my buggy and had no problems at all ( I used to use my sling which made life so much easier but my son is too heavy for that now) I have witnessed mums having problems with bus drivers and their buggies and my poor sister incurred the wrath of a bus driver also who told her she should not be getting on a bus with a buggy, she learnt to drive after that as she vowed never to go through that again.

I suppose from the bus drivers point of view they have to deal with lots of mums and buggies every single day, and some of them are probably not very patient about it. Even though there was no one on the bus, he might have wanted to get moving for one reason or other ( break? clocking off time? etc) but that is no excuse and I don't understand why people who work in customer focused jobs have to be aggressive and short tempered , especially when you are not being rude to him and trying your best to manage a baby and fold a buggy.

I have no advice to offer but I feel your pain.

I personally try to avoid buses with my buggy as much as possible, as I KNOW that one of these days I am going to encounter a stroppy bus driver.

[ClareC]

Must admit I rarely use buses these days, tend to walk everywhere within reason. The driver did get off at Peckham Library so was obviously close to having his break, the ridiculous part was that it took longer for him to wait for me to fold the buggy etc than it would have done for me to board at the other doors!

Maybe it was the infamous Nigel ;-)

[giggirl]

Sadly, I think some people just enjoy being mean. Mothers with prams are an easy target. Depressing and sad but true. Sorry.

[ClareC]

It certainly did come across that way :-( there was no obvious reasonable explanation for his behaviour.

[giggirl]

I've seen it happen a few times with bus drivers (both male and female). There's no desire on their part to problem-solve or help. Just utter jobsworths being difficult becuase they can. I'm not saying that's always the case - but that's been the case a few times that I've witnessed.

A while back I saw a woman handle the situation with such simplicity and dignity that I'll never forget it. The driver had driven off and was giving her a hard time as he drove. She simply asked him to stop the bus and let her off. He backed down and started to be reasonable but she insisted she wanted to be let off. "It's all right" she said. "I'll wait for the next one. The inconvenience is nothing compared to putting up with your bad attitude". She didn't shout at him or try to reason with him and I think he was expecting her to. Anyway, I honestly think she got to him because he looked really put out when she got off.

[ClareC]

What a great response:-)

[catgirl]

I've had this problem on the new design 63's as well. You can fit a maclaren through but not anything with wider wheels. Hence we do have an old maclaren which I now always use for bus journeys. I had a nice driver though who let me on through th eother doors! Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. Actually makes me wonder how a wheelchair user would manage - assume they'd have to go through middle doors as no way you could get a wheelchair past that pole? If they make buses too narrow for wheelchair / buggy access then they need to allow you to get on a different way. In fact I might email London transport about it. Obviously I realise that unlike a wheelchair it is possible to fold a buggy and walk it past but as you say, if you're on your own with a baby who can't sit or walk themselves then it's pretty impossible to hold the baby safely and fold the buggy at the same time!

[Fuschia]

Having had several bad expwriences I no loger try to use buses with my twin buggy. I did complain to TFL twice about separate incidents in one week, but you don't get any acknowledgement or response

[anna_r]

Our nanny regularly uses the 63 bus with a phil and teds and has told me of several bad experiences, always with the same bus driver. Usually they are understanding when she asks if she can get on at the exit door then swipe her oyster and most are happy for her to do that. There is one driver though who doesn't let her (even though the bus is empty) so she has had to wait for the next bus. Its so ridiculous. Nasty man. I wonder if its the same guy you ran into Clare. What a stupid design change as well. We've been thinking about complaining to TFL about him but feel like it probably won't do any good.

[ClareC]

A twin buggy must be near on impossible! It's sad when the actions of a few make public transport a negative experience :-(

In hindsight the driver must have known (when he happily let me touch in and pay for the journey) that the buggy wouldn't fit.

Seems an absolutely ridiculous design! A wheelchair definitely would not get through the gap.

[Belle]

I've not been on that bus but have def experienced the annoying bar thing you describe on another bus, can't recall which. I now use a maclaren but was using my other pram (bigger one) when I encountered the different layout and it was a nightmare. I remember my baby was quite small and I got all flustered, and thankfully a nice lady already on the bus kind of guided me in (as of course the driver was already moving at some pace so we were wobbling all over the place). I do generally find buses more stressful than even the tube I must admit. Not so bad for short journeys but for eg when I go up to Victoria, can be tricky.

I also hate when they stop too far away from the pavement so you basically have to lift the buggy up onto the bus. Once went through that whole rigamarole only to be told by the driver that the pram space was already full. I was quite cross about that...

[edanna]

Wheelchairs always go through the back door because that's where the ramp comes down. Use the bus quite alot, though not the 63, and it's normally fine. What bugs me is the way drivers often stop miles from the kerb, or with a lamppost or bin right in the middle of where you need to get off.

[ClareC]

anna_r Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Our nanny regularly uses the 63 bus with a phil

> and teds and has told me of several bad

> experiences, always with the same bus driver.

> Usually they are understanding when she asks if

> she can get on at the exit door then swipe her

> oyster and most are happy for her to do that.

> There is one driver though who doesn't let her

> (even though the bus is empty) so she has had to

> wait for the next bus. Its so ridiculous. Nasty

> man. I wonder if its the same guy you ran into

> Clare. What a stupid design change as well. We've

> been thinking about complaining to TFL about him

> but feel like it probably won't do any good.

I have just called Peckham bus garage and spoke to Alison in Customer service. She wasn't aware of the design issue, however confirmed that it is their policy to only allow double buggies on the back doors, however discretion can be used.

I have made a complaint about the driver, I gave a good description which coupled with the time and location of the driver change makes him identifiable. Unfortunately I am advised I won't get any follow up, just the assurance that they have 15 days to deal with it. Apparantly complaints about particular drivers are put on their records so any consistent problems can be identified and additional taining provided as appropriate.

I won't describe the driver on here since to do so would be unfair, however it certainly sounds like the chap your nanny encounters who certainly does seem to have a few customer service issues! I definitely think it is worth complaining about - especially given she is using a double buggy so is allowed on other doors in accordance to "policy".

The number to call is 0207 064 5740

If everyone that has suffered from this new design calls to advise the bus station, they may well see sense and change the policy on these particlar buses.

[EDKiwi]

Just as a bit of info if you want to complain about a certain driver.

Each bus has a 'running number' usually a small yellow or black card with a 1-3 digit number on it. In the photo below you can see it just below the drivers cab, there should also be one by the front door. If you note this along with the route number and time of day the bus company can (usually) pin point the exact driver.

It can also be useful to note the reg number or 'bonnet' number (in the photo it's the TA 233 number) but that's probably easier said than done.

I think half the problem is that they design the buses for wheelchairs to go on through the rear doors (there is even a button outside on the rear doors so they can alert the driver they are there), so I guess they (the manufacture) assume that's how buggys would get onto the bus also. As I see it they should let the buggys through the rear doors also, no matter what bus it is, surely it would make eveyones life easier.

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/images/bus%2065.JPG

[Fuschia]

TAMBA (Twins assoc) have circulated info that TFL agree that double buggies should be allowed on via the rear doors.

[sledge]

Hi

This has happened me before! I always ask permission to get straight on in the middle - park pram and then go up and swipe my card. Most of the time this is OK.

There are some very stroppy drivers out there. My husband is in a wheelchair so if we are travelling as a family - one pushchair and wheelchair it can be tricky. We once had a situation when the driver would only let one of us on despite there being space on the bus for both of us!! My husband got on anyway and refused to move, and claimed disability inequality.

[Mrs T]

I haven't been on the 63. But I went on the 37 twice today and it had the same problem. These must be new buses as I've never had a problem with the 37 before. Both times I was told to get on the middle before I even boarded. I hope the driver you had Clare C doesn't ever drive the 37!

[esme]

I've had problems on various number buses - 176 i got on today had half the usual space for buggies so i had to turn mine next to front seat meaning 2 people had to give up seats for me... had problems with the bars for wheelchair users narrowing the path (esp bearing in mind seats aren't roomy enough for a lot of people so you end up barging pram into someone's side whilst struggling to get pram into "compact" space). i can't get on most P4s as they are badly designed meaning you have to get on at the back then go swipe your oyster card (or get on then off again - depending on the driver, tho most have been reasonable on this number - must be a nice route to drive or nicer bus than double decker?).

Getting buggies on and off is a total nightmare, slings far more handy but not always possible if you have to carry a bit of stuff with you or it's a long journey etc. i have had good experiences with drivers on the whole - tho one the other day when asked whether he had space for my pram bellowed "why don't you 'ave a look!!!" to which I smiled and said "charming" - he realised how bolshy he had sounded and grinned back.

Mind you getting on n off with baby is nothing in relation to nightmare of being pregnant and travelling by bus - I can count on one hand the number of times I was offered a seat (once by an elderly lady with a walking stick!). One driver tried to make me pay twice when the previous bus I had been on decided to end at the library (why does that always happen in bad weather?!) without warning. I had to bustle on with a million others in rush hour and then argue as to why I shouldn't have to pay twice. It was freezing cold (January), pouring down and I was 7 months pregnant. I complained and hopefully the driver at least got a telling off.

Let's set up a private company - the East Dulwich shuttlebus for mums?! LOL

[ClareC]

Now there's a plan ;-)

I am guessing there are not too many public transport using parents involved in the designing or purchasing of these new buses!!

Sound's as though the nice driver's with common sense recognise the design issue and use their discetion whereas others use it to wield power for some kind of weird kick!!

Can't believe Sledge's expeience!! I really hope you complained, that treatment is discriminatory and totally wrong.

[Ann]

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure the design is for wheelchair users not prams/pushchairs. I've seen wheelchaired passengers use them on a number of occasions but obviously nothing like the number of mothers with young children.

There's no excuse for the way many of you have been treated but to be fair, I've witnessed many parents squeezing themselves onto commuter packed buses at 'rush hour' with prams that take up an inappropriate amount of space. Just playing Devil's Advocate!

Ladies it wasn't many years ago you couldn't get a pushchair of any description on any bus anywhere! Please count your blessings.

[mumof3girlies]

I had the same experience on the 63 when a bus driver completely refused to let me on with a double buggy - he didn't even stop the bus!I am dreading trying to get on one of these new buses as it's stressful enough going on a bus with a baby/toddler and older children.

Ann - I appreciate you are playing devils advocate but although I would avoid going on a bus in rush hour, some mothers have no choice, if they have to drop children at nursery on their way to work for example, I would never condemn a mother for taking a pram (however large) on a bus at rush hour, after all the buses are for everyone not just 'busy' commuters going to work.

Quite an old fashioned opinion IMO.... Are we mothers supposed to stay at home and get on with the ironing, cooking, scrubbing the hearth etc. etc.?;-)

[Belle]

I once got a bus back from victoria about 3.30/4ish - in my inexperience I thought I'd be well clear of rush hour. Turns out was the middle of the school run, bus was rammed, it was a nightmare. I got loads of dirty looks for not folding the buggy but the trouble was initially my son was asleep, then he woke up screaming and the bus was so rammed it would have been quite dangerous to try and fold buggy and then hold my wee wriggler whilst standing up. I got loads of 'helpful' people trying to tell me he was thirsty/needed to be held/ etc - in the end I got off the bus at Oval and walked to Denmark Hill before re-boarding a quieter bus.

My point is that I genuinely didn't realise I was getting onto a bus that was about to get really busy, I did what I could in the circumstances, and when it got too much I got off again. It would have been nice if people had been a bit more sympathetic and helpful. Ann - to your other point, I note that on threads about why living in ED and more generally London, people often comment about the wonderful activities and places of interest 'on our doorstep'. This is only really true if getting to those places is possible, (and hopefully not too fraught), so I think parents or indeed anyone travelling with a child has a right to expect that of our public transport system.

[sledge]

Ann - I also appreciate that you are playing devils advocate but I was constantly one of those mums going on buses and trains at commuter time as I used to commute for 90 minutes with my son to work (I couldn't get a local nursery place) - I can honestly say from experience that if I HAD a choice I would never commute with a toddler because (a) it's stressful for them, me and other commuters! I did it until 8 1/2 months pregnant with my second - and never was offered a seat either DESPITE being doubled over with braxton hicks on the train when picking up my son.....and funnily went into labour the next day!

Sorry for the moan!