Pregnant woman smoking down Lordship lane!

[giggirl]

Yes it is dramatic HH, but you are being really sanctimonious so I'm hoping that a little bit of drama might help you see that.

Yes, some people are weaker than others - so what? It's only one dimension of a personality. Be a little more accommodating, a little more accepting of people's weaknesses. Acceptance of people despite their flaws is a STRENGTH.

Today your child is a little baby but as he grows and develops he will become a flawed human being - with faults - just like the rest of us. Just to state the obvious - all these little "unborn babies" that people are talking of - in just a few short years they will be the ones having a crafty fag outside of the Bishop on a Saturday night. Some of them will take drugs, some of them will be smokers, some will be alcoholics, some will have criminal records, etc. So if today's grown ups are just seeing things in black and white - how well do you think you'll be getting on with your little treasures when they inevitably turn into flawed adults? Will you just shake your heads and say "I don't know what I did wrong?"

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

See, you don't know me at all, I would love my son if he was gay, that does not bother me in any shape or form, he is my son, I gave birth to him, and I will do my best by him but I know he will do what he wants at the end of the day when he is an adult and as long as he is not breaking any laws, I will be supportive of him. And IF I HAVE A DAUGHTER AND SHE SMOKED WHILST PREGNANT, I WILL BE ON HER BACK TO GET OFF IT.

I have flaws, that is normal. EVERYONE is judgemental. Just as you are judging me, we are all judging each other but some people like Lig will voice their opinion and some people won't voice their views. As I said, I would give a look, I would not say anything because there are too many unstable people around who probably would smack me one if I said something. I get random strangers approaching me and telling me things ( example in earlier post about my son and his hat).

Carrying precious cargo is the ONE time just for nine months, you put that baby first. That is all. People have plenty of time to give in to their weakness afterwards and take up their vices again but is just nine months really hard to put your baby first?

giggirl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes it is dramatic HH, but you are being really

> sanctimonious so I'm hoping that a little bit of

> drama might help you see that.

>

> Yes, some people are weaker than others - so what?

> It's only one dimension of a personality. Be a

> little more accommodating, a little more accepting

> of people's weaknesses. Acceptance of people

> despite their flaws is a STRENGTH.

>

> Today your child is a little baby but as he grows

> and develops he will become a flawed human being -

> with faults - just like the rest of us. Just to

> state the obvious - all these little "unborn

> babies" that people are talking of - in just a few

> short years they will be the ones having a crafty

> fag outside of the Bishop on a Saturday night.

> Some of them will be gay, some of them will take

> drugs, some of them will be smokers, some will be

> alcoholics, some will have criminal records, etc.

> So if today's grown ups are just seeing things in

> black and white - how well do you think you'll be

> getting on with your little treasures when they

> inevitably turn into flawed adults? Will you just

> shake your heads and say "I don't know what I did

> wrong?"

[missus]

"as Lig said, there are help for smokers out there, patches etc..."

....Are you actually serious?! Patches?! You are very lucky, my dear, that you decided you were above smoking cause if you still continued you would know that patches don't make a blind bit of f'in difference to most people who have smoked up until the point of getting pregnant (i.e. a long time).

RE your comment on willpower. Have you not considered that smokers have the same amount of willpower as you but a greater level of addiction?!

[giggirl]

HH - no, I don't know you at all. So what?

Sorry I edited my post because I wasn't comfortable with saying gay in that context as it looked like I was saying that there was something wrong with being gay - and obviously there isn't. I was thinking of a list of issues that would need need parental sensitivity. Gay was top of my list but when I re-read my post it looked very wrong and just didn't belong there. Looked like I was saying it was a bad thing - and it's not. Sorry everyone, don't want to add a hetro/gay dimension to an already difficult thread.

But this is interesting HH

I know he will do what he wants at the end of the day when he is an adult and as long as he is not breaking any laws, I will be supportive of him.

So if your son grows up and breaks some laws, you won't be supportive of him. Won't he need your support then? Sorry - not trying to trip you up and really not trying to provoke, but what I'm saying is - the world isn't black and white. People screw up, fall down, need support. Accept that.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I am obviously a product of my environment since my family members either died or got ill through smoke relatd cancer,or like my mum , dad and other family members despite smoking heavily at a very young age, they managed to give up smoking,, or like other members of my family/friends, they want to give up, but not enough so thus they are still smoking. Edited to say that with the latter, if you ask them they will say they want to give up, but yet they are not prepared to put in the hard work, hence they are still smoking. Giving up anything is hard, but it is possible if you really are prepared to give up and endure the hardship that comes with breaking an addiction.

missus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "as Lig said, there are help for smokers out

> there, patches etc..."

>

> ....Are you actually serious?! Patches?! You are

> very lucky, my dear, that you decided you were

> above smoking cause if you still continued you

> would know that patches don't make a blind bit of

> f'in difference to most people who have smoked up

> until the point of getting pregnant (i.e. a long

> time).

>

> RE your comment on willpower. Have you not

> considered that smokers have the same amount of

> willpower as you but a greater level of

> addiction?!

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

GG Right so if my son becomes a peado or a murderer I am supposed to be number one mummy? I don't think so, I would love him, but I would most certainly not be supportive.

Small crimes are different matters but hopefully he won't go down that road!

I still don't know what that has to do with harming a baby via smoking?

And I do accept people cock up, I cock up but as I said earlier, a baby is supposed to be the biggest motivation!

[Indiana]

HeidiHi - I am sure you promised many posts ago that it was going to be your last post??!

Shall we call it time now ladies and gents?

[SeanMacGabhann]

potentially!!

sheesh

[missus]

Yes, so the former example's addiction can be considered to be less than the latter's.... hence why the former have managed to give up and the latter have not.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Yep you are right, I keep getting drawn in.

This really is my last post and you can call time Indiana.

Indiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HeidiHi - I am sure you promised many posts ago

> that it was going to be your last post??!

>

> Shall we call it time now ladies and gents?

[giggirl]

Oh do we have to? I've had a whole in-box of PMs telling me I'm right about absolutely everything. They're all too afraid to come out and say that in the open though. In case of the backlash.

[monniemae]

Ligaturiosity Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> monniemae, it's a free world and you are entitled

> to your opinion. However, your analogies are

> beyond ridiculous and deliberately contrary.

I'm not being "deliberately contrary" any more than I'm using "beyond ridiculous" analogies, I'm articulating my viewpoint!! I was hardly waxing lyrical with the analogies either. Everything I wrote is my genuinely-held opinion but you continue to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a bully or contrary or ridiculous or whatever without engaging with them.

[prdarling]

I know he will do what he wants at the end of the day when he is an adult and as long as he is not breaking any laws, I will be supportive of him.

I know we are not supposed to be posting anymore but this from HeidiHi just mad me smile

We are to assume from this that if you have a daughter, when she is an adult and as long is not breaking any laws, you will be supportive of her... so if she wants to smoke while pregnant you'll have to do a bit of backtracking

Bonsoir tout le monde

[Ligaturiosity]

Monniemae, you have also dismissed my points!!!

I have engaged with many of those who disagree with me. You don't like me calling your analogies 'ridiculous' yet you feel it appropriate to attack me personally as "utterly misguided" and a 'bully'. As explained a bully is someone who does something to undermine others who are usually weaker habitually. I do not do that. I am a more confrontational person than reserved, but do not pick on weaker types to boost my insecurity, which is generally what bullies do. Happily I am not insecure, and I deal with the stress that we all get from time to time in quite healthy ways like exercise. I have the odd glass of wine as well. And no I am not pregnant.

My "lack of desire or ability to see this from the other woman?s perspective" - I have already answered this point MANY TIMES and so have others like Heidi and Harshbut Fair.

but I would like you to expand upon my "shaky understanding of science and medical advice". How is it shaky?

You advise me to "leave everyone else?s *unborn* children alone" which is exactly what I did.

[helena handbasket]

giggirl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh do we have to? I've had a whole in-box of PMs

> telling me I'm right about absolutely everything.

> They're all too afraid to come out and say that in

> the open though. In case of the backlash.

:)-D

[Ligaturiosity]

Ok Giggirl, I have largely ignored many of your rude and sarcastic postings, but I felt the need to address this accusation that you made: "Ligaturiosity - what a BIG BULLY you are and all the while trying to accuse other people of being bullies. Unbelievable. I don't think I've ever seen the like of such bullying on the forum."

Oh really? If you are referring to Cyberbullying, which I assume you are since you do not know me so cannot comment on that "involves the use of the internet to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm others. -Bill Belsey. Additionally, it certainly hasn't been me that has made ongoing pejorative remarks towards others (e.g. psycho/nutter/one woman angry mob/bully) and threats (ie would have punched if I had said anything to them). If anything I have tried to explain myself. So you don't like my explanation? I certainly don't go hurling vitriolic names to all and sundry.

You also say "Throwing accusations at Keef on a public forum to say you've had PMs from (a bunch of cowards) not prepared to post on an open forum. That's a whole new low."

What? A whole new low by me and them? I don't blame them for not posting publically/publicly if this is what they would get for disagreeing with people like you. Why are they a bunch of cowards just because they don't want to be on the receiving end of vitriol?

Your points to heidi H have been especially unpleasant and sarcastic. "Yes HH you're right. Some people are WEAK. Let's save ourselves a lot of trouble for the future, put all the WEAK people against a wall and shoot them shall we? Serves them right for being weak." You just sound so defensive and ANGRY. Camomile tea - esp 2 teabags per cup - is quite good for calming one down, have you tried it?

[helena handbasket]

Ligaturiosity, I wrote many of the mis-quoted bits you have rattled off in the previous post so really don't blame gigirl for every remark you don't like. She's not the only one calling you bonkers.

I said it was a whole new low, and I meant that about YOU because I frankly don't believe you have a legion of admirers PM ing you in support all day long. Hell if you look closely, at least two of your four whole supporters are the same person!

But then I read your last past, and the one before that, and my god just when I think you have crossed into another dimension of ridiculous it gets more insane. I'm now certain you are 14.

You need to stop. For the love of god.

[TillieTrotter]

This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Can we please stop giving oxygen to these people. PLEASE

[Ligaturiosity]

"Helena handbasket" the 'misquoted bits' were from giggirl's posting so not sure at all what you are on about. I couldn't care less if you don't believe me, lol!!!

I am mystified as to why are you even on this thread. Is it because you are secure behind your computer screen, and can descend into an accentuated form of 'road-rage', safe in the knowledge (metaphorically speaking of course), that you do not have to worry about me emerging from my car and dragging you out of yours? Not that I would stoop to such depths, but hey i did say metaphorically speaking, didn't I?

Is your loathing of my cyber persona an inculcated desire for totalitarian control of a discussion ie this one? I suspect so. Here you can take refuge behind some sort of cyber defence. Doubt you'd have the confidence to say anything to someone like me in 'real life'. Personally, as I have suggested, I prefer direct interaction but only on rare occasions when I see something morally and socially objectionable (I think most agree that what I saw was not to be commended).

I have been on this forum long enough on and off to recognise that this is not the only example of a thread turning into a quadrangle of tarmac where 'children' congregate during free-time at school.

[TillieTrotter]

Do the decent thing and walk away in disgust.

[elderflower]

since this thread started, I have been on holiday and back. Liga, seriously, where is your husband? Go and say "sorry, you were right" and stop fighting the truth.

[waterbottle]

I don't post often and I know this has run its course so apologies if adding to the steam but I have been away for a while and have just read all 13 pages of this thread in one hit - gripping stuff, so just have to add a thought or 2! To me (as a have a fag 'because I can' or 'because I want to' or 'because I need to' type occasional smoker), the interesting bits are:

1. that there might not have been an insight into smokers' psyches and therefore incorrect, possibly patronising, judgements have ensued. We (smokers) know it's bad, for us, for our companions, for our unborn babies (we can't fail to have cottoned on to that, no matter how ill or well educated we are) but we still might do it, possibly in a modified way, because the immediate addictive temptation can be greater than the fear of long term effects. So any lecturing or education or telling off in the street may not make any difference at all.

2. the way that the thread turned into a debate/commentary on a red top style headline created by the OP. This is EDF at its very best, I think. Wind them up, pull them out, and stretch it. The 'Pregnant woman smoking in Lordship Lane' subject line had so many angles to cover. (And it was followed by a more recent celeb occurence of virtually the same thing - reference Billie Piper caught on camera puffing in the pub garden, villified by the press because she was beside a/her child). Similar to Ligaxxxx's spotting, we have no idea of the context - first fag of the year, fag 'because I've just got to', 20th fag of the day? Who knows and, IMO, it's none of my business.

BTW I have 2 healthy teenagers and possibly smoked about 10 or 15 fags over each pregnancy, when I felt the urge. It was a combination of 'I know I shouldn't' and physiology (hormones tell you not to add to toxins to your blood) that meant a bigger urge wasn't there.

[giggirl]

Liga

We all make mistakes, every one of us. I think you made an error of judgement in doing what you did. Making a mistake is, however, not the end of the world. We're all allowed to do that. It's not the mistake that has kept this thread going; it's how you've handled yourself. That is why it's a car-crash thread. You haven't shown one ounce of humility, not one ounce of compassion, nothing but more of the same sanctimony with which you started the thread. Somewhere around page 3 you should have thanked people for their contributions and drawn a line under the thing. You could have done that you know. Instead, with every post you've dug a deeper hole.

You've tried to manipulate by playing the victim (didn't work), accusing people of bullying you (nope, I haven't seen that) and now you're going with the "cyber bully, wouldn't say that to my face" old hairy chestnut. Well we're a small community with regular open drinks Liga so I think you'll find that most people don't really hide behind their screens on this forum - most of us can be seen out and about most days in ED. Your post yesterday about Keef was, IMO, a "big bully" thing to do, so I called you on it.

I'm sorry that you think I'm angry with Heidi because aside from the fact that I don't agree with most of what she said yesterday afternoon, she comes across as a thoroughly decent and nice woman. She's worth engaging with. You are not. That is sad. You're either just not getting it or you're beyond stubborn. You could find a close friend maybe and ask them why they think you've gotten so many people's backs-up on this thread. It's simply not normal on the forum for one person to rattle so many cages.

[Ligaturiosity]

Waterbottle, thankyou for your post. IMO, yours is the FIRST post from a smoker's perspective - and a woman who smoked during pregnancy - which is written reasonably and in a non dogmatic way. As you have written in such a reasonable way I am prepared to take on board your points and empathise to a point. You say you have teenagers, so when you were pregnant smoking was not as socially unacceptable as it is now. Hell it is illegal to smoke in public places now thankfully. It is hard for me to understand addiction as I have never been addicted to anything, but that was never my point. You have explained very reasonably that you knew it was bad doing it, but that the urge on occasion was overwhelming for you. I just don't think it is wise in this day and age to do it so blatantly. You are opening yourself up to criticism, as was Kate Moss and the delectable Kerry Katona who also smoked during their pregnancies and were seen doing it by photographers.

Giggirl, I am not 'worth engaging' with IN YOUR OPINION. You are not worth engaging with IN MY OPINION.

[giggirl]

Ligaturiosity Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Waterbottle, thankyou for your post. IMO, yours is

> the FIRST post from a smoker's perspective - and a

> woman who smoked during pregnancy - which is

> written reasonably and in a non dogmatic way.

So all the previous smokers who've bothered to come on here and share there opinions have been "unreasonable" and/or "dogmatic". Dig dig dig dig dig. Make that hole deeper.