Pregnant woman smoking down Lordship lane!

[cate]

There is also a law about being inebriated in charge of a child. Will have to find the details to quote. You can get up to 4 months in prison and a large fine.

[peckhamboy]

there is legislation prohibiting forms of behaviour likely to injure or harm the unborn child

Not wishing to be pedantic, but the legislation you quote in fact prohibits forms of behaviour intended to kill the child. As you suggest, both extreme and well off topic.

Edited to say: and as for

- the point is that as the law currently stands it is not illegal to smoke whilst pregnant. In the meantime, verbally abusing those who are considered by the abuser to be in breach of an as yet unwritten law is unacceptable - and could even be assault (which is an actual offence).

[Harsh-but-Fair]

I agree that the intention shown under the above statute law requires a specific intention -or a high level of mens rea. But a basic intent or low level of intent is sufficient under the common law case- I believe the case is R. v McDonald [2002] NI 54.

I can envisage a time where self induced activity such as smoking/drinking can give rise to a charge of gross negligence manslaughter.

And yes, common law cases act as precedents and change over time. Judges can extend their meaning. Interesting I hadn't thought about the link till peckhamboy mentioned it. I'm off topic now I agree.

[Sarah_Rose]

you also dont know what this ladies personal situation might, maybe its not ideal and she is under great stress. sometimes you have to hold your judgment back and wonder what situation would lead a heavily pregnant woman to smoke in this aware day and age.

[plimsoul]

stupidity

[Harsh-but-Fair]

Ditto 'stupidity' PLimsoul. I don't buy this 'under great stress' while pregnant either. Being pregnant is no doubt stressful at times for all women, but the majority are selfless enough to refrain, at least for 9 months, from activities which will endanger the life of their baby.

[Lawrence]

Plimsoul wrote

"i have no problem with women who enjoy a glass when pregnant (not whole bottle!).......

don't even start on once they're born. every person feels it their duty to comment."

You are comfortable calling the smoker stupid?

HBF. Sorry I asked about the legislation, I thought you may have had a point. Your logic seems to compare smoking and drinking to attempted murder/intent to procure a miscarriage.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Ditto Plimsoul! I was under great stress when I was pregnant, I didn't feel that I was stressed but my blood pressure was through the roof for some reason or other, and my midwife/doctor didn't tell me to have a cigarette or a glass of wine to calm down, I was told to do yoga, swimming or exercise even breathing exercises.

Countless women are stressed during pregnancy, morning sickness, hormones and the rest, it is a very life changing time and it is understandable for stress levels to rise.

My mother was a very heavy smoker, she smoked since she was 13, and she was a chain smoker but for each of her five children, she stopped smoking throughout the duration of her pregnancy, she would be the first to say she lacked education when she was younger but she was smart enough to know that the cigarettes could not be good for the baby. Her babies were more important than her addiction. When her grandchild was born, she gave up smoking completely, she went cold Turkey and I am so proud of her because I know how much she smoked and it must have been extremely hard for her to give up, but as my mother would say " If you want something bad enough, you will do it" and I agree with her.

I find it hard to believe that a medical professional would encourage someone to smoke, I am not saying yours didn't say that but if I had medical professionals who said it was ok for me to smoke, I would be changing my hospital, I have family members who work in the medical field and I asked them and they said "No" they always try to encourage the mother to give up smoking and that is the advice they are given. Was it Kings College?!

So if we saw a heavily pregnant woman downing a bottle of vodka/taking herion/coke/smoking a cannabis etc we should turn a blind eye because they might be under stress/lost a family member/ recieved bad news/it might be their first one?:-S ok then.

That is the last I am saying on the matter, because I say Kudos to the OP! I would not have had the guts to say it but I would have given her a look!

[Harsh-but-Fair]

every person feels it their duty to comment." ...indeed it is a contentious issue that we all have an opinion on. The act or behaviour of anyone endangering the unborn child or newly born is just wrong.

"Your logic seems to compare smoking and drinking to attempted murder/intent to procure a miscarriage." You asked and IMO as I see it that there are legal protections and restrictions prohibiting a mother to be from acting in a way that may cause injury to the unborn. I qualified it by saying it is off topic.

[standswithfist]

YES by Kings College, my own doctor and the midwives (not to mention the cessation nurse who also had to see me regularly) and it is also on my maternity notes. Not that its any of your business. The points I tried to make are:

1) I knew it was harmful to unborn baby - I think its now be said quite a few times no one is arguing with this

2) I was under a huge amount of stress which the doctors deemed more harmful to my baby - what can you not understand about that?

3) It is my choice (or do we live under a dictatorship) if I smoke or not and if someone came up to me in the street and told me not to smoke I would find that rude and intrusive ESPECIALLY if you do not know me or my background.

Edited to say I now no longer smoke but still feel strongly about a person's free will and choice.

[Belle]

I think perhaps people don't always realise how strong addiction can be. I met someone once who I remember I was shocked to see was smoking whilst pregnant. She was the sister of a friend of mine, and when another friend criticised her actions, the brother told us that she'd become pregnant while recovering from a heroin addiction. She'd managed to stay off the heroin once pregnant, and to drastically reduce her smoking as well, but yes she succumbed to the occasional cigarette. I'm not saying i went away thinking 'well done her for smoking', of course not. But it did make me realise nothing is black and white, and that beating addiction is not easy.

To those who were able to withstand cravings - well done you. But I do object to the mindset of 'I mananaged it so why can't everyone else?'. We all react to things differently.

[TillieTrotter]

It's obviously time to get everyone who isn't a Saint (like the few shining examples above us) the snip, otherwise they'll be alot of people doing time during their pregnancies. Mind you, what happens if a Saint loses her baby, she might get accused of doing something murderous (like smoking, drinking, eating goats cheese, wearing high heels etc etc etc etc etc) when in fact of course she didn't because she is a Saint!!

I cannot bear the sanctimonious "Well I was also under stress....but I didn't" attitude. MYOB

[SeanMacGabhann]

yes, because of course they are all the same thing as having a fag

When are the pro-shout-at-strangers mob on here going to realise that none of us are promoting smoking whilst pregnant. We are just saying that, relatively speaking, it's not that big a deal. Relatively speaking. Compared to say, walking across the road, it's pretty safe, for example.

It's certainly not comparable to downing a bottle of vodka or taking heroin FFS.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I don't smoke anyway but my point is, if smoking it better than stress levels why was I not told by Kings, my doctor etc to smoke as that is better then my stress level being through the roof? I was told no smoking, no drinking, eat lots of healthy food and walk as much as possible. Common sense really but some people don't realise it. The NHS points out clearly that one cigarette causes your baby's heart to work faster because of the lack of oxygen. That alone would be enough for me.

As said my mother is the perfect evidence of someone who had a strong addiction from the age of 13, she gave it up, people do give it up, so it IS possible. I would think that if there is ever a time to give up something, it would be pregnancy since you are carrying a life, and that life is being made inside of you, don't people owe it to their babies to make sure they are given the chance to develop properly?

I work with children, so for me, it is paramount that every child is given a good start in life from conception onwards.

That does not make me a saint, I think it makes me normal, but obviously not.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Vodka is legal Sean, so if a pregnant woman was to down a bottle of vodka, why is that different?

Cigarettes has over 4000 ingredients in it, 69 of those are known to cause cancer,Vodka a lot less.

[Mark]

Walking across the road has zero ingredients in it, does that make it safe?

[TillieTrotter]

Heidi, just accept that some people are not as responsible, strong willed or just plain perfect as you and your family. If you start to criminalise women who do it "wrong" in your opinion, you are opening Pandora's Box. In life, you have to do what you think is right but don't get too judgemental with others. I have been parenting for 21 years now and I can tell you that the rules about rights and wrongs change frequently over the years, so what you believe to be right now will be altered within 5 years after some "new research".

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

It is nothing to do with research, you drink a glass of wine, it alters your feelings/mind, you smoke a cigarette, you get that nicotine hit, THAT alone would tell you that it cannot be good for a baby so one should refrain from it when pregnant.

Calling me perfect is just a cheap shot. I understand people are different, that is obvious, but children do not get a say in anything, it is down to US as adults to ensure that they are given the best start. That is all I am saying. When you have children, it is no longer about US but THEM.

[sophiesofa]

HeidiHi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't smoke anyway but my point is, if smoking

> it better than stress levels why was I not told by

> Kings, my doctor etc to smoke as that is better

> then my stress level being through the roof?

err, because you weren't a smoker in the first place.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Err but they didn't ask me so they didn't know that!

sophiesofa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HeidiHi Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I don't smoke anyway but my point is, if

> smoking

> > it better than stress levels why was I not told

> by

> > Kings, my doctor etc to smoke as that is better

> > then my stress level being through the roof?

>

> err, because you weren't a smoker in the first

> place.

[TillieTrotter]

Not really Heidi, it's still about us as we continue being people not just baby carriers. IMO, a happy pregnant women gives birth to happy babies (not always but mostly IMO). The odd ciggie or glass or wine, guilt-free, can enhance that very long pregnancy. I'm lucky in the fact that I don't know anyone who has damaged their unborn babes and still managed to have a sensible, considered pregnancy with the odd cig and glass.

And when you get on your soap box and tell everyone that you didn't so therefore they shouldn't it comes across as sanctimonious which equals perfect.

[prdarling]

if smoking it better than stress levels why was I not told by Kings, my doctor etc to smoke

No doctor is saying smoking is fab to keep your stress levels down, what the poster is saying is that as a smoker who was under huge stress for whatever reason, her doctor thought that adding to the stress by trying to stop smoking outright would be detrimental to her health.

Everything seems very black and white to you...and you talk about common sense

[esme]

...for fear of carrying this post on way too long than it has already been going, i cannot help but say i am pretty shocked that people are more bothered about someone giving another person a mouthful than the fact that smoking is proven to pose a serious risk to the life of an unborn child. even if you think she should have minded her own business, i think it's important that some people are reminded how their behaviour impacts on others.

if you all disagree with her actions do you feel the same way about hitting a child or mistreating it in some other way? i doubt it very much. smokers posting on here seem to want a medal for quitting while pregnant. we all give up things when pregnant like ciggies, caffeine, alcohol, certain cheeses etc. but obviously some can cause more harm than others. i gave up some stuff but hey that's life, a baby is a blessing and just as you give up a good night's sleep i reckon you should also give up smoking.

comparing it to crossing the road or taking other day to day unavoidable risks is just silly. i have to say that all this rubbish above about how the stress of giving up can be worse than actually smoking is a load of old tosh too!

i wdnt be brave enough to tell someone off for smoking while pregnant but i think it's disgusting and agree with Lig - cue more postings having a go at me no doubt but hey i cdnt care less what y'all think, everyone's entitled to speak their mind! :)

[TillieTrotter]

They certainly are entitled to speak their minds, and then they are entitled to listen to others opinions whether they like it or not. Not, in the case of the OP.

Everyone agrees......oh shit, I give up.

[sophiesofa]

Smoking is bad

Stressed pregnant ladies is not good

Odd ciggy to reduce stress levels, not ideal, but understandable

Having a go at someone at someone in the street is low and wrong.