Pregnant woman smoking down Lordship lane!

[standswithfist]

here here mumofgirlies!!!

[nicolemodesti]

Not sure I shall ever learn how to be a perfect parent! Well done mumof3girlies.

[louisiana]

Ligaturiosity, given that you seem to think it's fine and dandy for people to publicly berate adults behaving in a way they personally disapprove of, may I just say that I think your behaviour in this case was pretty obnoxious. Have you no sense of decorum? No manners?

Next time this urge comes over you, why not ask yourself: 'What would the Queen do?' I think you'll find that members of polite society do not behave in the way you advocate. Except behind closed doors with servants and factory workers.

And if you'd rather such displays of behaviour you disapprove of be banned from British streets, may I suggest you campaign to elect a government that supports your views and is willing to change the law to accommodate them? And in the meantime confine your outbursts to your servants and factory workers.

[stevebailey]

I've skipped quite a lot of this because..................well it got a little boring and repetitive to be honest.

However I do have one point, and I'm happy being the only one that thinks said point is correct..........

Get a life, or a hobby, or just don't leave the house!

I thank you for your time.

Actually I have 2 points............... we live in a democracy, nobody agrees with you, therefore you are wrong! Live with it!

[Sally81]

Wow. Have just read most of this thread and I'm sorry Ligaturiosity, but I agree your behaviour was worse than the woman smoking and believe it was actually rather childish.

I am pregnant and have stopped smoking. It is extremely difficult. Many people who have never smoked will scoff at that, but it's true. I haven't smoked during my pregnancy so far but who knows what will happen to lead me to have a weak moment.

I say this, because two years ago I received a desperate call from a good friend, who was at the time pregnant.

She had just had the terrible news that her father had died whilst holidaying abroad. To cut a long story short, at her house later that day she asked me if I would judge her if she smoked. Of course I didn't. And she did.

Who knows what that pregnant woman on LL is/was going through that day. There could have been a very good reason why she had felt the need to smoke.

[Narnia]

Something to agree on...........I hope

Everyone has condemned Ligaturiosity for stating publicly something most of you agree with. I would mind my own business in that situation as everyone has been saying. That's because I don't feel as strongly about it as she does. I did try to use an analogy in a previous posting suggesting that if it was the ticking off of a litterbug you would all congratulate whoever that person was for being brave probably.Oh but that's illegal was the somewhat pathetic response that received.

In the same way a litterbug may need to be educated that by not littering they are improving the environment not only for them but for everyone, maybe this pregnant lady has not had the benefit of a suitable education. Telling her off may not improve matters. However if we ever get to a state in the world we live in that we are afraid to say what we feel is right, then what sort of society will we end up living in. This is a world/city we live in after all where a misconstrued look in the wrong direction could end up with you being beaten up.

So L, I'm with you for what you did though I don't necessarily agree with you. Good for you though for following your feelings and not your head. More people should do it. Hope you like the song!

[prdarling]

Aaaggh God I can't help it.

Surely littering afftects us all and pollutes/dirties our surroundings while a smoker only harms herself and it's none of our business. I agree with questioning litterbugs/people who don't clean up after dogs etc, but if people want to smoke, surely it's their business.

As someone has pointed out, it's dangerous to stop something suddenly if you are that addicted. Doctors/midwives don't even recommend heroin addicts stop using drugs full stop as their bodies can't handle it. You don't know this person's circumstances.

It would be great if we all lived in a rose tinted world where everything is perfect but life's not like that. It's easy to sneer at people when you think they are wrong but it would be nicer to show a little compassion.

[louisej]

Lig, can you not see after all you have read that you were out of line and judgemental? Why did you ask people's opinion on this when you were never going to accept anything other than others agreeing with you telling off mum to be? This discussion says more about you than about smoking during pregnancy. You are obviously a caring person but you come across as a modern day one woman angry mob.(not trying to be mean by the way)Im just amazed that you are so closed to the thoughts and opinions of others. Sometimes being passionate about something makes us ignorant. Its not just you, i can be opinionated too but you are something else. I hope life teaches you some kindness and humility x

[Narnia]

Surely the point is that the smoker isn't just harming herself?

Valid point but neither do you know the circumstances of the litterer. They may have done it for the first time without thinking as they had just been told they had only 6 months to live. Even the law might excuse them in that situation.

That's it from me as I can't contribute anything else.

[Saila]

>:D<

..... i have six months to live, i'll do ten things i've never done before

1) sleep with two people at once B)

2) do a bungee jump

3) go to an all night rave

4) run the marathon

...

10) throw some litter for the very first time!

rock AND roll

[Lawrence]

prdarling Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Aaaggh God I can't help it.

I know, it's painful.

Narnia- I assume you chose to ignore the varied and logical reasons people offered regarding the differences between littering and the OP's behaviour. You still seem to think this is about smoking as opposed to the manners and acceptable behaviour. The smoker is only harming herself, POSSIBLY HER unborn child, HER family. You seem incapable of appreciating the difference with private health issues and anti social bahaviour.

"I'm with you for what you did though I don't necessarily agree with you."

I just don't get this, how can you support something you do not agree with?

"Good for you though for following your feelings and not your head."

I think a big part of what separates us from animals is the ability to apply reason before action. For example, if I were the smoking girl, my feelings would have led me to poke Lig in the eye with the fag. A split seconds thought would lead me to take a deep breath and calmly give her a piece of my mind in return.

Appreciate the fact that we don't live in world where everybody runs around saying exactly what they think, I believe this is the basis of manners.

[Lawrence]

Saila Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >:D

> ..... i have six months to live, i'll do ten

> things i've never done before

>

> 1) sleep with two people at once B)

> 2) do a bungee jump

> 3) go to an all night rave

> 4) run the marathon

>

> ...

> 10) throw some litter for the very first time!

>

> rock AND roll

Awesome. So if you happen to get preggers after receipt of the news is it ok to smoke or is it still selfish and disgusting.

Discount the Megrahi factor.

[Harsh-but-Fair]

Just a quick thought how many of us are smokers with children?.

Has this affected our decision to support or condemn the OP?

Some of the comments are interesting , some slightly overly emotional and nauseating and some deliberately inflammatory. I respect people who stand alone against the masses and I respect people holding a view contrary to mine. Some of you such as mumof3girlies also suggests that the OP is on the lookout for all forms of anti social behaviour, or perceived bad behaviour in the area which is interesting. I think the OP's comment were about the single issue of smoking and their arguments reasonable in my opinion.

I obviously acknowledge the dangers to the smoker and others and baby of course. I feel some of the overtly PC liberal comments here are from people saying one thing and meaning another in reality. Why is it wrong to remonstrate with people over littering, smoking whilst pregnant or other forms of anti social behaviours.

I wonder how many of us are chain smokers who smoke all over their kids and frankly don't give a sh*t.

[helena handbasket]

I have just read your post three times and for the life of me I can't understand what you're saying.

I am quite sure, however, that most of "us" are not chain smoking all over our kids and don't give a sh*t. I actually don't think many posters are smokers, not that it matters.

[mumof3girlies]

Just as a BTW, I don't really believe that it was lig in Goose Green on Friday, I was more drawing a comparison of how some people, feel they have to concern themselves with other people's business when they would do far better worrying about their own lives/families/children etc. etc.

Lawrence said:

I think a big part of what separates us from animals is the ability to apply reason before action. For example, if I were the smoking girl, my feelings would have led me to poke Lig in the eye with the fag. A split seconds thought would lead me to take a deep breath and calmly give her a piece of my mind in return.

Appreciate the fact that we don't live in world where everybody runs around saying exactly what they think, I believe this is the basis of manners.

I think Lawrence is right on the button on what was wrong with Lig's behaviour, it seems some people either are unable to keep their mouths shut when they disapprove of something , or they frankly don't give a s**t about another people's feelings - who knows what camp Lig falls into??

[waterbottle]

OMG, have only just seen this thread. Have waded through the nine pages of it. The title is interesting. Could it be Northcross Road instead? Or perhaps on Rye Lane? I'm astonished that there are so many posts. Pregnant women have been smoking ever since smoking was invented and continuing to smoke since it's been demonised. In the same way pregnant women have been choosing what else/or not to consume - food, drink, exercise, work etc. Pregnant mothers will decide what they want to do. Nothing to do with anyone else, we/they decide as we need to so MYOB, I reckon.

[Harsh-but-Fair]

Hi Helena Handbasket.

Seems clear to me.

Two simple questions followed by a supportive statement of OP and an opinion/observation. May I suggest a fourth read.

Another observation as to how things have changed. The one who causes harm, ie smoking Mum to be, is protected by the group, yet the one who points out the risks is regarded as the social pariah. Odd methinks?

As my old Pa would say ...no wonder we're going to the dogs

Just a final point re. Standwithfist's post: "We may have been lucky but at the end of the day it is I who would have to live with the consequenses of smoking during her pregnancy", surely it is the child who would have to live with the consequences of your smoking. Let us hope that she doesn't develop asthma later on, like I did.

[prdarling]

It's not a question of the OP 'pointing out the risks' - it's about her verbally attacking a stranger in public for something she disapproves of. Where would we be if we all felt we had the right to do that?

Nobody is 'protecting' the pregnant smoker and I'm sure I speak for most people when I agree that it's horrible, but I think the discusson is about one's personal freedom to do something which abeit disagreeable, is not against the law and is not affecting any other member of the general public.

You just can't harangue everyone you come across when you don't like what they are doing!

[Harsh-but-Fair]

Hi prdarling

I do not advocate verbally attacking anybody. I am simply agreeing that the OP has a point, which seems to be a minority point here on the forum, which I find unbelievable. The fact is that an intelligent bunch of people find favour with Mum to be because and her right to smoke over any health concerns for the unborn baby.

You say "...personal freedom to do something which abeit disagreeable....", needless to say that I consider that this personal freedom should be discouraged to protect child born and those in utero.

[Lawrence]

"I respect people who stand alone against the masses and I respect people holding a view contrary to mine"

So do I, especially if they can express their views in an intelligent and polite manner. My feelings are a little different for those who need to impose those views on others.

Everyone who has posted agrees smoking offers no benefits to baby, I think this was established on p1.

"littering, smoking whilst pregnant or other forms of anti social behaviours."

I understand you have a personal take on this discussion. Correlation is not causation, my step brother has asthma and his mother never smoked. Please try to understand that smoking, on a public street is not anti social behaviour.

Babies were around a long time before civilised behaviour and healthy life styles. I think it is important to favour the rights of the mother, to do otherwise turns mothers into vessels, with no rights of their own. That however is a whole different debate.

[missus]

Couldn't have summarised more perfectly myself, Lawrence! Hear hear!

[Harsh-but-Fair]

Lawrence. I do take your point. However like it or not we are living in a changing world where smoking has become less and less acceptable and it will in time no doubt become a secret and hidden pastime enjoyed by the few. The Labour government and most of Europe have seen fit to ban it from almost everywhere, work places , pubs etc. This will inevitably lead to it being classified as an anti social behaviour as the laws restricting it continue to stack up.

I also take the point that mothers existed pre smoking, of course, but "...I think it is important to favour the rights of the mother, to do otherwise turns mothers into vessels, with no rights of their own." How intriguing but I disagree and believe that mothers are not allowed to do as they please, and there is legislation prohibiting forms of behaviour likely to injure or harm the unborn child. It is also well documented and researched that smoking parents on balance tend to have underweight and often iller babies than non smoking. I must stress that both my parents and grandparents smoked like chimneys throughout my upbringing but it was never right.

[missus]

Isn't this the very problem that people are arguing?! It's a question of whether you believe it is acceptable for anyone, be it the Government or Ligurosity, to tell you how you should or shouldn't behave in your own personal time. I think the key word in your paragraph, HBF, is 'tend to have underweight and often iller babies...'. Tend to does not mean, if you smoke it's absolutely inevitable that permanent harm will come to your baby. Just as we all know it is bad, we also can be pretty certain that a couple of fags here and there is unlikely to do such damage.

I think mothers should be allowed to do as they please in the eyes of the law for sake of individual rights. I get what you are saying about the babies taking on the consequences of such actions but that is for the mother to come to terms with herself as a responsible expecting parent, NOT for the government or any other busy body to interfere in.

The idea of it progressing to become ASB is positively ludicrous and would be just another example of state-based morality pervading individuals life style. Why? Because the same argument that has been stated over and over in this thread, holds true. The gov sees things in an assumptive overview; like Lig, it does not look at the individual cases such as SWF's, who achieved masses by cutting down and achieved little totally giving up... What does this achieve?! Nothing but a brooding resentment towards people/collectives who are, it appears, ever increasingly encroaching on personal freedoms.

[Lawrence]

"legislation"

HBF- To what do you refer? The only thing I could think of is the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, and that was put in place to make sure expectant mothers were given the same treatment as others.

[Harsh-but-Fair]

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929, Offences Against the Person Act 1861 s58 and 59, case law such as R. v McDonald [2002] NI 54, Re Attorney Generals Reference (No 3 1994). Slightly extreme I admit and a little beyond the topic but the law is there and can be extended in time no doubt.