The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[Brendan]

Human nature that. We are attracted to the things that afflict us. Like the few people I know from uni who went on to do the 7 years to become psychologists are stone bonkers, every one. Proper disturbing nuts too. Not your amiable, wears nothing but a floral mac and barks at dogs on the bus nuts but full-on, deep-set eyes, down-lit, framed by a broken window on a storm-lashed night kinda nuts.

[mockney piers]

I should just add that this lot were somewhere in their 30s to 60s, the majority were divorced, the majority had poor relations with their scions. THey all struggled financially, they all lived in Letchworth.

Those things alone are enough to give people cause for mental difficulties and enough stress to bring about neurotic ailments.

You see what I did there, looked at something objectively and hypothesised that the obvious grouping (they are all new age alternative types) isn't necessarily the causal factor.

Hurrah for science!!

[*Bob*]

The friends I have who are into alternative therapies are exactly the ones who I would expect to be into them. Some would say this is because they are open-minded.. others might be less kind.

But I can vouch for the fact that they are hypochodriacs. Back pain, stress, RSI, insomnia, headaches.. their list of ailments reads like the window of a Chinese medicine 'clinic'. Interestingly, they're also the people who ought to be least troubled with these things, being financially comfortable, not working in a stressful environment (or working at all) etc.

I think it's like a kind of self-perpetuating minor addiction for some of them, which feeds off itself.

[*Bob*]

I ought to have added:

.. which is fine. It doesn't hurt anyone. It makes them feel better about themselves. It keeps someone gainfully employed.

Job's a good 'un.

[mockney piers]

Back pain is the most common ailment in the country, stress to some extent affects everyone. I suffered from RSI for about 2 months, but it was nothing that a wrist rest and a straightening up of my pc and desk didn't sort out pretty quickly.

I think most people get headaches, though mine seem to be monring oriented and coupled with a dry mouth and a weird taste of onions and chilli, weird that.

But I know what you're saying.

[citizenED]

Feel I should offer some sort of apology, to MW74, for not pitching in this debate a little earlier, but my parents were nothing if not insightful when giving me the middle name procrastinator. Oh, and added to that I am a pitifully slow one-finger typist!

But, whilst I am not a consumer of Alternative therapies, I am hardly a consumer of pharmaceuticals either. Pass me a glass of water. I just tend to think that there are so many options in the range of therapies on offer it seems unproductive to line up the Medical ones against the Alternative ones. We are not talking about the high end stuff, the serious illnesses that will obviously respond better to hardcore drugs than to a flower, but if we look at the low-level stuff, the headaches, etc then why should anyone be upset when a punter chooses a homeopathic remedy over a pill? The money goes either into the coffers of a pharmaceutical company or an alternative therapy company or practitioner. I guess in that sense I'd rather give my money to a small scale operation than a multinational.

On balance, habitually taking a pill for a headache or most other minor ailments seems wrong. Better to find another solution. But it is where the science aspect in medicine gets us, because the linear thinking in science takes us to one point and then tries to alleviate it. It treats the synptom, not the cause. Viewing things more holistically gets you to a point where you can see all the options on offer as complimenting each other not in dispute.

Oh, and there is a guy/girl split going on, all those medical dudes with the cartels, the power and the political leverage telling us, the punters, not to bother with the other therapies because it is all a bit wrapped up with emotions, and we cannot have that kind of thing in medicine, can we. The best scientists are artists or poets too - Da Vinci, Richard Feynmann - they understood mechanisms, but they lived on their intuitions and emotions. Get the link.

citizen

[Alan Dale]

Do you think I could charge ?50 an hour for telling people to pull themselves together, grow up, stop whingeing or just get on with it?

Come to Alan Dale's Tough Love Clinic- I'll tell you what you already know but are too soft on yourself to admit. And it seems that if I charge you enough you might even take my advice.

[Brendan]

Extra ?50 for a smack in the gob and a kick in the pants on the way out.

[citizenED]

Alan you got a certain J. Clarkson and R. Littlejohn as your partner therapists?

[mockney piers]

With you all on those really.

Most low level ailments are lifestyle related.

Rather than a pill, homeopathic or otherwise, find strategies to cope with it.

Give yourself a few early nights, make sure you drink enough water, try and get a bit of exercise, even if that's walking to the shop instead of driving or the bus, going up the stairs instead of a lift at the office.

Got a problem at work or frustrated about something, go down the pub, have a pint and offload on someone who's willing to listen. If you've got a partner ask for a back rub. Have a hot bath together with some nice smelly stuff.

Bottom line, try to enjoy life.

All pretty simple things that make a big difference.

Recourse to a pill is an emotional crutch really. I avoid pills as ibuprofen makes me go weird and antibiotics really do do your body in and homeopathic remedies are patent nonsense.

[Alan Dale]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alan you got a certain J. Clarkson and R.

> Littlejohn as your partner therapists?

Why oh why would I work with those cnuts?

They preach slightly different therapies. Mine is more of a 'get your chin up and get on with it' stance than it is to look for Islamic scapegoats or complain about the M4 bus lane.

[*Bob*]

Tramadol. Tylex. Valium.

Sorted.

[MadWorld74]

citizenEd,

I'm sorry your words were not taken seriously. You get to a point where you think "whats the point?" in trying to educate people.

You just get sarcasim in return.

[Asset]

I only take recreational pharmaceuticals. don't trust anything else.

Mockney, you mentioned arnica earlier - it is clinically proven to help with bumps and bruising, also St. John's Wort has been proven to assist with depression. Most herbalism I would say is worth a try.

Acupuncture has also been absolutely proven to help with certain conditions, e.g pain relief.

Whilst there are many dubious 'therapies' out there, there is also a lot of proven efficacy for 'alternative' medicines.

[Alan Dale]

As long as you can charge ?50 an hour I'm sure you'll maintain the will to 'educate'.

[mockney piers]

Arnica has been proven asset a topical cream, but homoeopathic arnica remedy doesn't actually contain any arnica at all.

Of course herbal remedies can have a potent effect whether it's a dock leaf will helping to relive nettle rash, or aspirin scraped from a bark or penicillin, which is a naturally occuring fungus, or even a magic mushroom.

But alot of people take these without the foggiest idea of what they do. Actually studies of St John's Wort have found little to recommend it regards depression though it is marginally better than the placebo in non severe cases of it, but it is known to interfere with cancer treatments.

Plus I have no problem with acupuncture, as you say studies have been done and it's in excess of placebo in long term trials even if scientists can't explain why yet.

[MadWorld74]

Alan Dale you surmise that I am in it for the money? I do not practice for money. I only treat friends and relatives and for free. If I was to work out of a therpay room I would have to charge to cover the rent.

Unfortunately due to the world in which we live, consumerism is everything and touches everyone, whether we like it or not. Those practitioners, who do charge, do so because a service is offered and although you are not walking away with a nice little bag that has something in it, you receive a 'product' never the less.

It's not alright for a charge to be placed on certain therapies, but it's okay for the big boys to charge thousands of pounds to give you some 'laser treatment' and a phial of 'pills' that they say will reverse your baldness?

[citizenED]

Alan, I was attempting to post off-the-cuff, sorry to offend.

(BTW, am seeking planning permission to open School of Hard Knocks next door to your clinic. Watch out, we charge ?100 per hour)

[Asset]

I did mean the topical cream Mockney, I use it myself on the kids. I'm not sure about homeopathy, it's a weird one. It shouldn't work but some people swear by it. Ihave a friend who has never given her kids paracetamol or ibuprofen to reduce their temperatures, instead she swears by belladona (in homeopathic form). She maintains it works at reducing a temperature. Haven't tried it myself.

I also have another acquaintance who, instead of giving her baby the normal immunisations, gave her homeopathic remedies. I think that is a little irresponsible personally.

[Alan Dale]

CitiznED- I accept the similarities between my abrasive online persona and such celebrity cnuts as Clarkson and Littlejohn but I can assure you my politics are quite different.

Madworld- I'm sure Christmas is fun at yours. Enjoy your hobby and don't feel you have to defend your beliefs from sceptics such as myself.

[MadWorld74]

Madworld- I'm sure Christmas is fun at yours. Enjoy your hobby and don't feel you have to defend your beliefs from sceptics such as myself......

too right!! G & T for breakfast in round my gaff.

[Asset]

oh my gosh - an alcoholic reiki practioner....

[*Bob*]

Drunk in charge of a warm hand

[mockney piers]

Wow, asset, that's not only irresponsible, that's downright dangerous.

Of course we survived temperatures before paracetamol, aspirin or ibuprofen showed up.

But it seems self-defeatingto turn your back on them on some bizarre principle when they are there and proven to reduce temperature and are relatively harmless, and substitute them for a substance that contains no belladonna. weird.

I, being scared of flying, have my lucky charm that I take on every flight. It's worked every time so far.

Let's face it, the first time it fails is also the last time!!

[MadWorld74]

stop it you two....