The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[Keef]

Isn't science about discovery and disproving theories? In which case, scientists are trying to disprove things that were previously thought of as certainties... Rather than just assuming it's all mumbo jumbo (love that phrase), why don't they investigate it more closely, and see if there is something in it.

I once went to a church service where they were "touched" by the "winds of Totonto" (or something like that). They believed that the Holy Spirit had touched them, and people would stand either side of another person and trey for them, resulting in the person falling to the ground, laughing or crying hysterically.... All rather odd, but quite an experience (NOTE, I ONLY WENT AS AN INTERESTED OBSEVER AND WENT OUT FOR A FAG WHEN THEY STARTED OFFERING TO PREY FOR ME).

Anyway, I remember a girl standing up and telling her story; she had suffered from severe severe asthma, and couldn't walk 10 yards without struggling for breath. However, after she'd been "touched", she was cured, her inhalers were thrown away and she'd run a marathon.

Now I'm not saying I believe she was touched by the Holy Spirit (I'm not saying she wasn't either), but the fact is, her asthma had gone... How??? Maybe some things just can't be explained, but I'm pretty sure Dawkin would struggle to explain it too...

:-S

[MadWorld74]

Winds of Toronto...now THAT i like. Brilliant.

[Keef]

I'm sure it was Winds of Toronto, because it fist happened in Canada, but can't find anything about it on google.

[Keef]

Toronto Blessing

[mockney piers]

I'm sure it was like the case of the man in Life of Brian, who swept up in the religious fervour proclaims

"I WAS BLIND AND NOW I SEE"

Before falling headlong into the pit in front of him.

[Mark]

Did you see her suddenly get better? Did you see her before and after her asthma disappeared? It may be true, it may not (see my open mindedness kick in there?) but it would be good to read about the girl, her ailments and the actual story and get some evidence before I made a decision as to whether it's valid. If it was true, and I pray that it is, can I assume that the church now cures all the local asthmatic people of their illness?

[Keef]

Mate I saw this thing happening to a friend of mine (the falling, laughing and crying), and knew her to be a sane and intellegent person. Like I say, I'm not saying it was or wasn't some higher power, but something was going on... I found it rather scary, but interesting.

Reminds me of Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm by The Crash Test Dummies (a Canadian band)

"Then there was this boy whose

Parents made him come directly home right after school

And when they went to their church

They shook and lurched all over the church floor

He couldn't quite explain it

They'd always just gone there

I love that scene in Life of Brian!

[Mark]

I notice at the top of the article it says "This article does not cite any references or sources." and I've seen the falling, laughing and crying happening at a stage hypnotist show and I agree it's strangely odd.

I remember seeing some graffiti when I was a kid, on a church sign it said "Jesus Saves!" and some little tinker had written "but Dalglish scores on the rebound". Poetry.

[edited once]

[Keef]

I'm sure the article is very one sided, and didn't post the link to be some kind of proof, I was just trying to jog my memory as to this thing I went to... I do remember my friend's brother being a disbeliever, and then doing the whole falling over or "slain of the spirit" thing... I wish I'd let them prey for me, just to see if something happened. I guess if it hadn't they would have argued that I wasn't worthy.

I just don't like people dismissing things, be it science, religion, or alternative therapies. It just comes across as smug, live and let live, there's no need to show hoe clever, well balanced and intulectual you are all the time (that's not aimed at anyone inparticular, it's just how I'd like the world to be).

I for one am clever as f**k, but would rather sit at the bar and talk footy :)-D (for Ko)

[Brendan]

Science = knowledge gained through the scientific method.

The Scientific Method = Applying the following to a phenomenon:

1) Observation

2) Description

3) Prediction

4) Control (double checking/eliminating other possibilities)

5) Identification of cause.

This is the most reliable way of acquiring knowledge that we have, it works and it is responsible for our advancement as a species.

There are things in this world that people experience as real that fall down on one of these steps. Normally on point 5. Does this mean they do not exist? Before we understood oxidization gunpowder would still explode and you could prove it scientifically with a couple of fire crackers.

Or could we be missing something when applying these 5 steps something just somewhere on the edge of human observation that we can?t quite grasp but get a flicker of now and then?

Or is there something else to take into consideration other than these 5 steps that is so blatantly obvious that it will hit humanity through the face when we realise how obvious it is?

I?m not suggesting anything just posing a few questions.

Personally I have no idea. The Scientific method seems pretty sensible to me but I don?t think we should ever draw definites.

[Jeremy]

Keef, it's not really about being smug, it's about standing up for something you believe in. Just as MadWorld defends alternative healing, or a priest/rabbi/etc would defend their faith... if someone strongly believes that these things are invalid, or even harmful to mankind, then why shouldn't they speak up?

For the record I'm not saying that I believe all alternative/complimentary medicine to be claptrap, I have varying levels of scepticism for the different incarnations.

[Keef]

Don't get me wrong, I have just as little time for anyone who dismisses "western" medicine and science.

[capt_birdseye]

MadWorld74 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hmmmmmm bankers don't help others through times of

> trouble or improve the quality of people's

> lives.(depending on your view towards money that

> is!)

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there! I'm sure if you took away the hefty amount of tax they pay you'd soon see an effect on the quality of people's lives. The City also contributes huge amounts of money to all types of charities, therefore indirectly helping others through times of trouble.

[dulwichmum]

Lovely Hyounan,

Indeed "it only works if you believe in it" is recognised in mainstream medicine as "the placebo effect" I believe...

[SeanMacGabhann]

I know people who have bought perfume off those guys on oxford street and genuinely think it is dior

that sounds condescending i know. It is true tho.

keef is right. Its not nice to be dismissive. Far better to live and let live

and yet. . There are surely things we can be dismissive of? I dont want to name any specific and redundant beliefs but certain beliefs in the not too recent past did rely on a lot of people taking a "no proof needed squire if you say so. . " stance .

proof is all we have in this life. Any thing else is whistling in the dark. Again that doesnt mean that for example reiki does not work. If it works ill have it. But i need to believe in a philosophy for it to work? Really??

people i am very very close to believe in one, some, or most of the topics mentione in the show. I love them dearly. But they are wrong and i can see how damaging their belief is. To take one example a family has been abandoned to visit some guy in peru. Bet the kids will appreciate that in years to come. . And for what? She thinks this guy will enlighten her. She believes it so it may become true for her. But she has left others in her wake

[fractionater]

As a scientific man I'm surprised that Dwarkin didn't draw parallels with the Quantum Physics princinpal whereby observing an experiment can affect its outcome (I do profess now to having a very limited knowledge in this area so feel free to shoot me down!). So one could also assume that since we have no Scientific understanding of the actual Scientific processes involved during some of these alternative methods then how can we accurately measure them and draw conclusions with our current limited understanding?

When it comes to therapies that manipulate the energy system of the body, I think there is definitely something in therapies like Accupuncture, EFT/TFT, Reflexology, etc... I've never tried Reiki, and am a little sceptical of this area due to the number of therapists out there (who seem to get qualified in a weekend course), but then again I don't have much of a scientific understanding of the underlying principals/Mechanics, so won't totally dismiss it. If more scientific research were carried out in these areas then we'd all be better informed.

Trying to debunk something based on current understanding is wrong....just like the world used to be flat!

[Brendan]

While milling over this thread last night I was also funnily enough thinking about the idea that the act of observing something affects the outcome, but I also don?t know enough about it.

Can it be applied to everything around us or is it one of those rules that only start to apply at the sub-atomic level?

[MadWorld74]

Reiki levels 1 and 2 can be learnt in a weekend, that's true. But you have to be 'open' to it in the first place. It's not like doing a plumbing course. Not everyone can be a Reiki practitioner. And to be a Reiki Master you have to have had practised for many years. It took me 2 years to reach the stage at being 'able' to take the attunement for Reiki. You have to address lots of issues and theories if life first, before you learn to practice.

I'm sure the likes of Capt_Birdseye (closet banker) will have something to say about this, which I'm not going to allow me to upset or hot under the collar about.

shoot me down in a hail of bullets..................

[mockney piers]

I must say my first impression is that it sounds disturbingly like scientology. No parallels I trust?

[Brendan]

fractionater Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Trying to debunk something based on current

> understanding is wrong....just like the world used

> to be flat!

The world is flat when observed from within certain parameters.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Sounds like the type of thing that Tom Cruise might suggest...

[MadWorld74]

I can asure you, it is not in any way shape or form, anything to do with Scientology. Reiki is not a 'cult'. Scientology is.

[mockney piers]

Funny, that's just what tom cruise said. Well, it was difficult to hear, muffled as it was by his closet door ;-)

[MadWorld74]

Please do not link Scientology boys, to Reiki. Reiki is done alone. We do not need churches to do it. Scientology is not a medical practice. Reiki practitioners are often members of the C.M.A. they are qualified and recognised by law, they are also insured to practice. The law should erradicate Scientology.

[Mark]

scientology and reiki are both beliefs that make people feel better should they be open to suggestion.