The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[monica]

Sean i will make you right on that,we need medicine,nobody has disputed that,and the irresponsible doctor will hopefully be struck off,people like her give complementary/alternative medicine a bad name.

[monica]

Sean i will make you right on that,we need medicine,nobody has disputed that,and the irresponsible doctor will hopefully be struck off,people like her give complementary/alternative medicine a bad name.

As a therapist we do not have the right to tell people to stop taking medication,It is wrong and irresponsible.I like to call myself complementary,because we can complement the medical treatment with massage,Reflexology and Nutrition.Some therapists would call themselves alternative,by which instead of taking painkillers for a bad back,you can seek a osteopath,chiropracter or Acupuncture,who will help the healing process of a bad back get back to normal

[Brendan]

Those who enjoyed this debate will probably enjoy the following article from the Guardian:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/09/religion_advances_despite_scie.html

[SeanMacGabhann]

a brave man who resurects this thread Brendan.... good article tho

[mockney piers]

Meh.

I don't think Europe is anywhere near the warfare of fundamentalism vs entrenched atheism as witnessed over the pond.

We're much more inclined to agnosticism in the uk.

Indeed if I'm not mistaken even the (last) pope accepted that there is no theory better than evolution around, he just saw the hand of god in it (as he is perfectly entitled to do so, I guess if you accept that he's in everything then you're more than likely to see him in, err, everything).

Perhaps we could export Dawkins over there, it'll make him happier in the long run.

Interestingly enough our debate only ever flirted with religion. Probably because we previously tried to discuss it and it was even more one-sided than that which will forever be known as 'The Reiki Thread'. ie noone argued for, except a half-hearted Keef who was simply pointing out that we're a big bunch of bullies (not without reason though - pun intended).

[downsouth]

CIF - now that's a scary place.

[mockney piers]

Yes, it seems to be a refuge for all the ThisIsLondon forumites from a couple of years back. Now there was an ugly place indeed!

[mockney piers]

[SeanMacGabhann]

supernatural powers, by their NATURE, can not be contained by mere reason and logic. They say "pah" to your experimentation!

[Brendan]

Yeah. Experiments test the nature of well nature. Therefore something that is supernatural is not testable by experiment.

Well either that or it is just ?super? such as the ?super savings? one is supposed to make in the January sales that always add up to more than your Christmas shopping. Now I would like that one explained.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I was being sarcy

But then Brendan you are the master of dry delivery so you are probably doing the same

[Brendan]

Do you think? ;-)

[????]

Interesting how TB, Cholerha, polio, measles, etc were all controlled and in some cases eliminated by mystic 2000 year old shamanic treatments whereas modern western scientific medecine made no impact on them........er.....hang on a minute have I got that right?

[SeanMacGabhann]

???? - cheeky. That may have bought you a pint from Mockney and me... :)-D

[mockney piers]

Mines a porter.

Daily Mash get in on the act

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=691&Itemid=59

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm surprised more people on here haven't commented on the "real" news which the papers picked up on yesterday

Any of the forum's pro-homeopathists care to comment on the recent NHS news?

[hibbs]

MP that's such a funny website, thanks for the link.

[david_carnell]

Dr Crippen loads, aims and fires.

Meanwhile, some homeopaths are truthfully blunt. Or should that be bluntly truthful?!

[mockney piers]

It rumbles on, David Trennick seriously advocating homeopathy to treat HIV, AIDS and Malaria?!?

I thought the key line was in Ivan Lewis' response (at 2 in the morning, go that man)

"We genuinely want people to have free choice about their health care, but we also want to make sure that the choice that they make is an informed one and gives assurance that treatments meet key standards of safety and quality."

The emphasis is obviously mine.

*tumbleweed blows*

why do I get the feeling I'm preaching to the converted in here?

*edit - covered masterfully here http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/homeopathic-supporting-mp-david-tredinnick-misleads-parliament-and-offers-staggeringly-dimwitted-endorsements/*

[SeanMacGabhann]

Somehow I had an idea this thread wouldn't quite die and would, Lazarus-like, be resurrected (you know, speaking of reason and things that actually happened. And that did happen. Definitely. A man was dead for 3 days and then he was "raised" - definitely definitely happened, that)

Hmmm, sounds like I am one of the converted doesn't it

But to be slightly less cynical - let's say it did cure malaria and aids - wouldn't that be fantastic for everyone? The patients would be healthy again and not have crippling diseases and homeopathy would be a proven winner

oh but wait - it won't happen will it?

Edit - I should have read that last link before my post - it says everything I meant

I do like the

"It has produced what has been described as

"a convincing reduction in malaria attacks"

been described by who exactly?

[mockney piers]

Plus he doesn't seem to take an awful lot of convincing does he.

For instance he says it's used in Swaziland to treat "common ailments like cancer, gangrene, toxaemia"

Eek!!

[annaj]

Definitely already converted, but preach away, it's funny!

One of my least favourite jobs is seeing the children of parents who don't believe in vaccination, because they only want to use homeopathic cures and explaining that their poor, miserable child has mumps or measles and there is nothing I can do about it.

[mockney piers]

That scourge and enemy of Homeopathy Ben Goldacre, the man who's so biased in favour of "western medicine" once again points out the obvious, that science is about attempting to perfect objectivity.

And when it doesn't do that, it's not important whether it's homeopathy quacks or the half a trillion dollar pharmaceuticals industry, it's still bad medicine

[annaj]

This thread is like an itch you just can't stop scratching isn't it Mockney?

It may reassure you to know that a big part of my continuing professional education and training is critical analysis - learning to find and interpret published and unpublished data and assess it's validity and relevance to my work. In the exam I will have to take to become a consultant a quarter of the marks will reply on my skill in identifying bad (and good) science. Recognising conflicts of interest, often financial, and their effect is part of that process.

Having said that (oh dear, about to come over all honaloochieB and contradict myself) although we are all taught to practice evidence based medicine a great deal of what happens on a day to day basis is inevitably not strictly evidence based. Some practices were established before large trails were standard practice, so are not strictly evidenmce based, but have been shown to work over the years. In other areas it's very difficult to do the research, because of ethical constraints. In cardiac arrest for example, there is no evidence for the drugs used, because randomised controlled trials can't be done on people in cardiac arrest, because, well, they're essentially dead and can't consent. So the drugs recommended for use are recommended based on there known action in other areas - a sort of best guess.

Finally, it is worth remembering that medicine is an art as well as a science. What I do, and hopefully do well, is as much down to instinct and judgement as it is scientific knowledge.

I think that might be the dullest thing I've ever posted. Sorry, working too much.

Speaking of which, back to the coal face.....

[mockney piers]

You may have a point there annaj.

Well, about the itch, not about the dullness; very interesting post.

Arnica for itchiness, yes?