Incident in Peckham Rye Park

[mockney piers]

Cowardly probably not, but I do tend to think that unless mental illness is the cause, it is bloody selfish.

I have lost a friend to suicide, and he really had no control, he was experiencing severe delusions, and stepping in front of the train may have been the only we he could take control of his life, perversely.

I know a few others whose lost ones didn't have that excuse; the consequent pain, frustration guilt and anger never really go away, and that I find selfish, it's the ultimate **** you and last word rolled into one.

[bignumber5]

spadetownboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> wht is it being assumed this person suffered from

> depression,just because someone decides to take

> their life it dosent mean they suffer from

> depression or any type of mental illness for that

> matter. i do appreciate that sometimes it does go

> hand in hand but there are numerous other reasons

> why people commit suicide and not just because

> they are depressed.

Well said - clinically speaking, "depression" is a problem with serotonin reuptake at a presynaptic level, the mood being a direct result of that. It is possible to be extremely sad/low/lonely/isolated or any of the other frames of mind that would induce an individual to feel that suicide is their only option without being depressed. The assumption that low mood and suicidal ideation are only characteristic of clinical depression is a common assumption but a fundementally flawed one.

None of this makes it any less sad that that a life has ended, but I don't think it makes the location a "sad place". When I first qualified as a nurse I worked in cancer care - the wards where I was saw about one death per week, but they were places where some people found closure, and others found hope. Hey, if you live in one of the many Victorian conversions of ED then an elderly Victorian probably died in your home, as was the commonplace for advanced disease in that period. Your house is not a sad place because of this. As Mufasa says in the lion king, it's the circle of life!

[Jah Lush]

I agree with you there Sean. I can think of three or four people that I knew who commited suicide years ago and the feeling is definitely one of anger at the selfishness of such an act in their cases apart from one. A friend of mine had a nervous breakdown and quite frankly went quickly downhill soon afterwards and was diagnosed as a paranoid schizoprenic. He hung himself at the age of 25. It was ten days before his body was discovered. It still fills me with great sadness as he was such a lovely bloke before his illness.

[Brendan]

You will be hard pressed to find any place that isn?t tainted by tragedy. I?m sure many a life has ended before its time out on lordship lane where we all stroll on a daily basis.

As for the dead, let them rest and judge not.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Indeed Jah - it's the sense of "waste" that fuels the anger partly

That all said I wonder if anyone reading this thread has ever considered suicide - I bet it doesn't feel selfish

[Keef]

I suspect in a lot of / most cases the person doesn't really think about the people they're leaving behind at all. However, how can people call this selfish?!?!?!?

If you're in the sort of place where you're ready to take your own life, you haven't come to that conclusion lightly.

[smith]

Without wanting to bring the whole day down... I cited 'cowardice' because people can't always face the consequence of their actions eg Fred West (one name that springs to mind). Again, I'm not saying that this person was culpable in any way, just that there are more reasons than depression for choosing this course of action.

[Keef]

Ah, now you mention that, you could always mention Shipman. I however think that he killed himself more out of arrogance than cowardice.

[Asset]

But surely to take this course of action you must be depressed, whatever emotions, feelings or situations lead to you becoming depressed. We're not talking 'clinical' depression in the case of a chemical imbalance but a state of mind where one is despairing, sad, hopeless etc. Is that not depressed?

[smith]

Hitler?

[Asset]

Thinking about it, I suppose the Hari Kiri style of suicide does not necessarily stem from depression. OK you don't have to be depressed.

[MadWorld74]

Maybe I phrased my sentence incorrectly when I said it would be a 'sad place'. It will be a place that will feel different to me. His soul will not have been a happy one. No one taking their own life can possibly leave on the earth a happy and full-filled soul; no matter how much they wanted to kill themselves.

And yes, elderly Victorians or indeed Victorians of any age have probably died in my house But then again, their deaths were before my time so I have no knowledge of them. Different to being in the park last night, to actually have run past the Japanese pagoda, only to find out the news this morning. That does make me sad. I can't remember seeing anyone, but it goes though my mind...did I pass him somewhere else in the park? Was he sitting on one of the benches, was he taking a walk down one of the avenues?....it makes me feel odd in a way I can't describe.

[mockney piers]

I think generally any selfish act, whatever it be, will have some rationalisation and justification behind it. That doesn't mean it isn't selfish.

I had to spend an entire christmas trying to persuade my own father from topping himself about 4 years ago. He's prided himself on being super-rational all his life and figured he had all the reasons why he should do it completely worked out.

The most goulish christmas day of my life was spent alone with him in his flat trying to keep the cons of each method well outweighing the pros, "think of the poor driver of the train, you wouldn't want to make another person suffer now would you" etc.

Eventually the treatment he was on was increased and he (more or less) regained his senses, but in his eyes he'd have been right in every way had he gone through with it.

Objectively of course it would have been a spectacularly selfish act leaving everyone else to pick up the tatters. He was rational enough to know that, but refused to see it no matter how much I pointed it out.

Like I say, selfish.

[smith]

Glad it all worked out ok in the end mockney piers. Sounds like my kind of Christmas! A poor unfortunate friend of mine had to deal with the aftermath of his friend's quick 'exit' after the friend's computer was seized during police investigations...

[Bellenden Belle]

I once attended a training session on this subject by a psychotherapist. He put forward the thesis that actually when suicide was illegal on the grounds that it was "murder" it wasn't such a ludicrous suggestion. He suggested suicide was inevitably an act of agresssion - often towards a parental figure; so that in taking one's life, an act of revenge is undertaken. This was backed up by transcripts from his patients who revealed that their suicide fantasies included being watched by the parent as they killed themselves.

But that does not mean we should ever underestimate the pain these people are in. Or where their problem stems from.Sadly far too many people don't access the help they need - or indeed know what help is available to them, hence the tragic loss of life - both for them and those left behind.

[smith]

Just before he did the deed he phoned his friend and asked him to "pop round in 15 minutes". When the friend entered the unlocked front door he came face to face with a large hand-written sign saying "PATIO" with an arrow pointing in that general direction.

[mockney piers]

Blimey Smith, that's terrible. And weirdly theatrical too.

[Jah Lush]

How thoughtful of him... what a terrible thing to do.

[Keef]

See now that's just a bit nasty!

I'm still not sure I can go along with the selfish thing though. One could argue that it's selfish to expect someone to carry on their unhappy life just so you don't have to be sad...

I guess it's one of those things that's so awful, whichever way you look at it there are no winners, and there will be a lot of hurt.

[MadWorld74]

There will probably be some flowers laid out tonight up in the park.....I'm not sure if I'll run there again tonight. May do a different route for a while.

[mockney piers]

Life isn't always happy bunnies. I can tell you right now I'm in a pretty s****y mood, but you persevere. The fact that dad pulled through shows that it would have been futile topping himself.

Read the book of Dave and it's pretty obvious that Will Self hit rock bottom and was suicidal at some point. But if he'd done it, given in to the idea of the futility of life, we wouldn't have had his quality contribution to Shooting Stars.

Genuine medical reasons aren't clear cut, particularly mental illness, severe depression and chronic (terminal) pain. I just say there but for the grace of god* go I, but to say "One could argue that it's selfish to expect someone to carry on their unhappy life just so you don't have to be sad" sounds a little flippant, especially if they come out the other side stronger for the experience.

All just my opinion obviously, I'm no expert in ethics, psychology or religion.

*or flying spaghetti monster

[spirit]

-- moved topic --

[Administrator]

Moved solemnly to the Lounge

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Sometimes it can seem the only way to end intense emotional pain when you are in a situation you have no control over. It's not the only way, but at that moment, it can feel like it.

[batdog]

On this one I agree with Mockney !!