I now I am being silly but... support needed...

[Keef]

Cross posted, so ignore my last post.

[supergolden88]

I feel guilty anyway - I wish I was ecstatic during that scan. The whole thing was very rushed and the revelation that we were having a boy was almost throwaway. I didn't have the usual 2 hours waiting time to prepare myself!

I did think the same thing (count myself lucky) when I found out that a somone at work just had a miscariage (not her first).

Now I think I will go melt in a puddle somewhere

[gwod]

No need for melting into puddles. Yor situation makes me think of women who have become pregnant by accident, and whose hearts pounded with fear in worry when the little blue line appeared on the the pregnancy test. No-one would deny them the feelings of shock and possibly disapointment that their future is going in a direction they did not expect, but babies that started this way arrive and are accepted and loved and celebrated just as planned ones are. You sound like a woman who is fully connected to her feelings and can express them bravely - things will work out fine.

[iaineasy]

I thought we would have a boy and it turned out a to be a girl, I still hope she will be a world footy champion or make the england ladies cricket team and be a world champ at that. And if it makes you feel better (and just between me and you , don't tell anyone) my mum taught me to knit! Although I forgot how to cast on/off. It's tough not getting what you expect, but don't worry when you hold your little one you will probably wonder what you were so worried about.

The very best of luck to you.xx

hugs.

[new mother]

Iain, do the guys know about the knitting? Just wondering..... ;-)

[Jamma]

I think everyone's agreed that SuperGolden's feelings are entirely normal.

But.. One has to question a society that perpetuates the idea that even in utero a male or female child is different except in the obvious anatomical way. I am amazed and appalled by the attitudes here. That girls do one thing and boys do another. By thinking and talking that way you are putting barriers in the way of all those girl babies (and to a lesser extent boy babies) before they've even had a chance.

There is mountains of evidence that gender-specific behaviour is learned, not ingrained. Don't throw out the 'girls' baby clothes (what does this mean? That they are pink? Who says pink is only for girls and blue for boys?) dress your son in them. Define all your children as people, not as a gender or race or hair colour or whatever

[catgirl]

Jamma is this your child?

http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

No offence meant and apologies for highjacking the thread.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I disagree Jamma, gender usually is decided in the womb, my son is not 'made' to act a certain way, he does act like a proper loud boy already. He has cousins who are female, and he is surrounded by them constantly but he is not interested in their toys and what they do, he just wants to climb on them, shout loudly and show off. He is constantly going for the gadgets whereas my nieces were typical girls when they were babies so I disagree with what you say. Its all in the DNA. Naturally you get girls with more masculine ways and boys with more feminine ways but mostly boys will be boys and girls will be girls!

[Jamma]

Gee Heidi you kind of proved my point. Who says a 'proper' boy is loud? What on earth could be the connection with 21st century gadgets and millenia old DNA 'programs'?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Gee Jamma, why so defensive? Naturally not ALL boys are the same, not ALL girls are the same but I think it is silly to think we make boys the way they are and we make girls the way they are, how did they become the way they are in the first place? I don't think one man decided he was going to like blue, be physically different/stronger and that all other boys should lead by his example and like blue, footballs and so on, the same as girls, I don't think it was decided to like pink only! Obviously a girl will feel more comfortable with her own sex for example and will role play by copying her mum and playing with dolls and pretending to iron and wash but I know boys who play with dolls too.

I am giving an example whereby my son has his own personality from newborn and everyone has commented on how very boyish he is despite the fact I am a single mum and he has no father figure in his life but yet to see him at 10 months, he is really a typical boy ( that is he behaved the way most boys I know personally behave), loud, thuggish, straight for balls, TV, Mobiles, Remotes, always banging things, lunging himself off things, there is nothing soft and feminine about him already. The football was on last night and he crawled straight up to the TV and was glued to it, and I don't like football!

If my son wants to wear pink and my nieces want to wear blue, then there is no problem with that though when we go shopping and pass the toys aisle my son is straight away grabbing all the noisy toys ( mobiles that make noises etc) give him a doll or a teddy and it is tossed aside.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Just to add, maybe you should start another thread about gender instead of hijacking this one as it would be really interesting to see what people's views are on this but obviously out of respect for Supergolden88 it would be better to move it to a different thread.

[Keef]

Cool, the old Nature / Nurture Debate.

[new mother]

Jamma, do you have children adn, if so, what genders are they?

[Jamma]

Yeah I didn't want to hijack the thread, I don't think I am as it's kind of related to the original post. But let me be clear I have sympathy with the original poster and I think we can all agree that she's nothing to be ashamed of in feeling the way she is.

However. I have a problem with the way society genders kids from birth, apparently from before birth in fact. If society simply treated a child as a child then the gender would not make a difference.

Heidi's comments are a case in point. People say her son is 'boyish' - what does this mean? Who says that being boyish has to mean being aggressive, loud etc? Who says being feminine equals being soft? By thinking that you are doing a disservice to all the boys who are quiet, bookish, caring etc and all the girls who are load, energetic etc. You are putting limits on that child, projecting an idea of what they 'should' be like according to their gender. (I am taking it for granted Heidi that your line about girls copying mum doing the washing and ironing was a joke right? And most kids like football on telly - it's the calming green and the white noise of the crowd)

I'm struck by the way more and more people these days do find out the gender of their child before the birth. And by doing so they project their own gendered ideas on to that child. This is well documented.

If the admins think I am hi-jacking the thread then by all means says so but I couldn't help but respond to some of the incredibly gendered responses on here.

[fairylamb]

Sorry slightly off topic but this is an interesting quiz on the subject of brain sex (takes about 30 minutes). Turns out I have a male systemising brain which explains a lot!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

On topic SuperGolden88 I?m glad you're feeling a little bit more excited about your little fella - and hey you never know he might be in that group of guys with a more empathising brain.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

As I said in my message, not ALL boys will be the same and not ALLgirls will be the same, since we are all people in our own rights and we all have our only personalities based on our environment, our influences and how we think, so I made it clear that you will get boys and girls who will be different to how their gender is perceived to be as you pointed out with loud girls and quiet boys. We can only base things on our own experiences, my nieces didn't want to watch the football, so for you it might attract both gender but in my case it was just my son drawn to the very noisy sport as he is to all toys that are very noisy and involves a lot of banging, and if it is not noisy then he will be banging the toys loudly.

And why would I be joking about the girls following mummy? it is very good for you if you have one of those husbands who pulls his weight and does the cleaning, ironing and the cooking on an equal basis to you and runs the household equally with you but in quite a lot of homes I bet that it is the women who run the homes ( even if they have a job) and most girls will follow their mums and want to help out with the washing , cooking etc, some boys also. I wanted to be like my mum so I was always wanting to help with the cooking, washing and pretending to iron. My niece even asked for a hoover for christmas since her mum is her role model and her mum hoovers, why does it have to be a bad thing? it is all role playing and practice for when she does grow up and leave home and be independent.

As a single mummy I will be ensuring my son grows up pulling his weight, he will be helping out with cleaning, washing, and cooking.

As the article said that someone posted on here, most kids will tend to go and hang around with their own genders because they feel more at ease with them. You see typical signs of this at parties, and get togethers, the men/boys all group in one room/corner and the ladies group in their corner/group , naturally you will get some men with the ladies and vice versa but generally people feel comfortable with their own, be it by nationality, ethicinity, gender, age etc.

As for dressing boys in dresses, some places the men wear skirts ( Scottish, Greeks etc) girls do wear trousers, I have seen plenty of men and boys in pink, and plenty of girls and women in blue ( I wear blue) so I don't really understand your point? Why does it bother you so much?

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah I didn't want to hijack the thread, I don't

> think I am as it's kind of related to the original

> post. But let me be clear I have sympathy with the

> original poster and I think we can all agree that

> she's nothing to be ashamed of in feeling the way

> she is.

> However. I have a problem with the way society

> genders kids from birth, apparently from before

> birth in fact. If society simply treated a child

> as a child then the gender would not make a

> difference.

> Heidi's comments are a case in point. People say

> her son is 'boyish' - what does this mean? Who

> says that being boyish has to mean being

> aggressive, loud etc? Who says being feminine

> equals being soft? By thinking that you are doing

> a disservice to all the boys who are quiet,

> bookish, caring etc and all the girls who are

> load, energetic etc. You are putting limits on

> that child, projecting an idea of what they

> 'should' be like according to their gender. (I am

> taking it for granted Heidi that your line about

> girls copying mum doing the washing and ironing

> was a joke right? And most kids like football on

> telly - it's the calming green and the white noise

> of the crowd)

> I'm struck by the way more and more people these

> days do find out the gender of their child before

> the birth. And by doing so they project their own

> gendered ideas on to that child. This is well

> documented.

> If the admins think I am hi-jacking the thread

> then by all means says so but I couldn't help but

> respond to some of the incredibly gendered

> responses on here.

[helena handbasket]

Sorry to highjack this thread, didn't want to but can no longer sit on my hands!

Jamma, I'm not sure where you are getting your research from but it's not really accurate. I did a degree in child psychology and I promise you that there is plenty of research that says that gender is innate. Not to mention the variety of stories we know of regarding babies in the past who had have mixed genitalia at birth and so were "assigned" a gender, based on the antiquated ideas you are sharing here. These children had incredibly complex psychological issues regarding "self". It just doesn't work that way.

My son has also proven to me without a doubt that we are powerless to nature's grand plan. My husband and I have always been quite gender blind and encouraged him to enjoy "people" activities ........ we have also provided our son with dolls and tea sets as well as "boy" toys. We have no interest in cars/trucks/diggers/dirt/rocks/ants and yet our very "boyish" boy is obsessed. He really is "such a boy".

No point in questioning society here. Humans fighting gender roles is a relatively new development and evolution moves pretty slowly. Although I don't think that fighting your gender is a particularly useful evolutionary tool, if you see what I mean.

Supergolden88, boys are awesome! You'll love it!

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think everyone's agreed that SuperGolden's

> feelings are entirely normal.

> But.. One has to question a society that

> perpetuates the idea that even in utero a male or

> female child is different except in the obvious

> anatomical way. I am amazed and appalled by the

> attitudes here. That girls do one thing and boys

> do another. By thinking and talking that way you

> are putting barriers in the way of all those girl

> babies (and to a lesser extent boy babies) before

> they've even had a chance.

> There is mountains of evidence that

> gender-specific behaviour is learned, not

> ingrained. Don't throw out the 'girls' baby

> clothes (what does this mean? That they are pink?

> Who says pink is only for girls and blue for

> boys?) dress your son in them. Define all your

> children as people, not as a gender or race or

> hair colour or whatever

[BellendenBear]

I think Jamma has a good point, and many of the posts to contradict her merely reinforce what she says. I was also struck by how people project their perceptions of gender onto their babies, whether consciously or sub-consciously.

The idea that liking remotes, mobiles or banging things is 'boy' behaviour is ridiculous. All babies/toddlers that I have seen, boy or girl, love making noise and fiddling with gadgets, pressing buttons, and pretending to talk on mobiles. There are personality differences between babies, but I know lots of fearless physical girls and lots of gentle timid boys. But as soon as a child demonstrates a behaviour that is perceived as typical of girl or boy the adults seem to reinforce this. I know someone who thought their baby was a boy at the 12 week scan because it was jumping around all over the screen! As if girl fetuses just lie there and look at their nails.

As soon as a boy shows interest in cars or balls Dad rushes out and buys him loads of them and reinforces his 'boyness'. Same as soon as a girl picks up a handbag or a doll. We were recently away with friends and their 2 year old boy and baby girl and it was striking how the parents did this. Their son is very gentle and sweet and quite cautious, much more so than our daughter. His parents always focused on his boy traits - he likes balls and cars, never mentioning the fact that he loves nothing more than pushing his doll's buggy or dancing.

And pink being a girl colour is a very recent thing. There was an article about this in the Guardian or Observer a few months back.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I just don't understand what the big deal is? it is not like a boy wearing pink in this country will get him sent to prison, or called a big girl is it? and there are lots of girls who like fast cars, motorbikes, the football, lager etc and they are not mocked and discriminated against so I just don't see the point of Jamma's post? Physically and mentally boys and girls ARE wired up differently, boys and girls can never really be the same since our bodies are different. Men and women do in fact have different structures and wiring in the brain so gender might partly be learnt but I do believe it is mostly innate.

I have never personally seen any parents go out of their way to make sure their boys stick to boys stuff and their girls only like girly things. I remember a post on here from hanstands I think asking for a playbuggy for her little boy, which I thought was very sweet!

I even bought one of my charges a dishwasher as he had an obsession with dishwashers, not once did I think " It is a boy, so let me go and find a truck", I went for what he liked. In fact I had a disagreement with a boyfriend about it in the shop as he could not believe I was buying a boy a dishwasher as he thought it would make him more feminine and my argument was that toys and clothes is not going to make a child more feminine/masculine. Maybe men would have a bigger issue with their boys not being like themselves? I do believe some boys are more feminine and some women are more masculine.

If gender is something that is learned, why do intersexual/transgender usually feel a pull to either the female or male side if they could just 'be'? for want of a better word, that is, not be either sex? they must obviously want to be defined as one gender be it male or female for a reason? so gender DOES matter

.

I worked with a lovely lady ( who was my boss and then become my friend) who was born male but told me she always felt feminine and that she was born in the wrong body. She battled these feelings and in the end she could no longer live with her male body and had an operation to turn her into a female. I think it is amazing that she did this considering she faced so much hatred from members of her family and the general public and for her it was important to be accepted as the female gender.

Anyway I am just voicing my opinion as I don't understand the big deal, if supergolden88 puts bows in her son's hair and dress him in beautiful dresses with lace and sequins, and buys him dolls and prams, she would feel more of a bond since he would be more like her daughter? is that what you are getting at with your mention of gender? That his being a boy is nothing but blue clothes and noisy cars? How about the physical difference between boys and girls?

Just found this, interesting, a person with no gender!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrie_May-Welby

[Jamma]

I'll try and resist after this but by your own admission Heidi you're not getting the point. Gender is still regarded as important, the fact you are using the words feminine and masculine in the way you are proves what I am saying. Masculine means having a knob, feminine means having a fandango. That's what those words mean and I wish they meant nothing more.

The issue is important because when we put limits on children it is particularly the girls that suffer. In your example equating feminine with housewifery is limiting, it means girls grow up thinking they 'should' do the housework, and then they either feel bad about not doing it or they do it and it leaves them tired and holds them back in the workplace and as a member of the family. Either way it's bad for women. Men too are limited by these constructs but historically, and currently, it's women who suffer most. Being 'feminine' is much more limiting than being 'masculine'. That's not fair and it doesn't have to be that way.

All I'm saying really is just think and consider your own prejudices, we all do it but the more we try and avoid separating the sexes in our minds the better things will be for everyone.

(And I have to pick you up on the idea that 'we can only base our opinions on our own experience'. None of your nieces wanted to watch the football so based on your experience no women like watching football. We should base our opinions not purely on our own experience but on the available evidence.)

[The Nappy Lady]

Jamma,

I understand your point, and agree with some of it, but as a parent I have to say I've been consistently surprised by what I would describe as the 'instinctive' differences between the two genders. I see it time and time again......

- my first daughter was at a childminders with 3 boys, they would push buggys around with cars in, she'd put a doll in hers. Despite being with them for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week from the age of 10 months until she was about 3 she would play very differently to them.

- when she was at nursery I would often notice that 99% of the boys were out in the playground running about and 99% of the girls were inside doing crafts

- when I visit friends with boys they seem to be far more physical - bombing around more - my daughter will join in but this is not how she is normally when at home (though of course she is very physical at the park etc. and loves running, climbing etc.)

- a couple of years ago we gave her a night light that projected stars onto the ceiling - she wanted to sit in a dark room with it one looking at the stars, her two male cousins wanted to take it apart to see how it worked (after shaking it madly to see if they could break it).

I absolutely agree that boys and girls should be given open access to toys/education/careers whatever, but I don't agree in nurture over nature since becoming a parent.

Molly

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Thanks Molly ( and Helenahandbasket) you both said it better than I could. I can understand Jamma point, boys and girls should have equal rights to everything, but she is also failing to understand that there ARE differences between them.

I am not saying that because my nieces do not like football that all girls do not like football but I am saying, look at football matches, who make up the most numbers? men. How many girls and women honestly love football? How many girls are in the playground kicking a ball around? if I had a daughter and she wanted to be a footballer I would encourage it and I would not have a problem with it, but you are failing to understand that there are differences between both genders. If our daughters ask for dolls are we supposed to say 'no' and buy them things that are for boys? If our boys wants trucks and cars are we supposed to say go against that and buy them a tea set? My point is, I don't think we 'force' them to be a boy or girl, they just are.

( I also said there are girls that like football etc, we are talking about 'majority' and majority of people at football matches are probably men)

I didn't say being a girl is just because housework, I said it just so happens that the majority of women DO tend to do the housework and run the home so girls will follow suit, that does not mean they are limited to only being housewives, as I know plenty of lawyers, doctors etc that would take offend at that because they have jobs they worked hard for but they also run the home. There are plenty of women who have no interest in cooking, it does not limit them. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying but Molly and Helen Handbasket have said what I think anyway.

[new mother]

Jamma,

YOu didnt asnwer my query. Di you have children and if so what errr.... genders? May I assume no children as yet?

I had a very different view of children's development before having children myself.

[supergolden88]

My entire house is filled with mostly very girly toys: dolls, cuddly toys, tea sets etc. (as well as a few dinosaurs and train sets). When my little boy is old enough to express a preference I will let you know whether he is drawn to any of those...

All I know is I never dressed my daughter girly when she was a baby. She wore mostly trousers (some from the boys range) and all colours and was called a little boy fairly often. But as soon as she formed opinions she insisted on wearing dresses (they ones that "twirl") and refused to wear boyish clothing. I expect this to change completely later on - I wore only trousers between ages 9-14 and then later on switched to more girly clothing again.

I am all for presenting equal opportunities and so on but apart from the sex a lot depends on personality

[prdarling]

Jamma have you read family therapist Steve Biddulph's book Raising Boys, which is subtitled "Why boys are different - and how to help them become happy and well-balanced men"??

If you haven't read it, it would probably irritate you beyond belief as the premise is clearly the direct opposite of what you are arguing!

I have to say as the parent of two small boys and the aunt of two small girls I'm afraid I think that gender specific behaviour is definitely innate.

My sons have always played with a wide range of toys from cars and trucks to sweeping brushes, a play kitchen, arts and crafts, pushchairs, dinosaurs... the whole 9 yards. They have never thought that anything is inappropriate for them to play with, nor have we or their childminder/pre school ever mentioned such a notion. However, the fact remains that they prefer to hit each other over the head with the toy brushes, cook dinosaurs in the oven and wheel the pushchair around whacking into as many kerbs as possible, until preferably a wheel falls off. It would NEVER occur to my nieces to do any such thing.

People say

> her son is 'boyish' - what does this mean? Who

> says that being boyish has to mean being

> aggressive, loud etc?

This is what boyish means. This is what boys do. It is their nature. At no point have my sons been encouraged to be a pair of bloody monkeys but they just are. They were the first boys born in my family for generations, I have 2 sisters, my Mum has two sisters, my partner has 2 sisters, so I certainly had no preconceived notion of what boys 'do' or what boys 'are' but I have discovered over the past 4 years that they are very different creatures from little girls.

Clearly not all boys are one way and all girls another but surely the fact that over the generations the word boyish has come to mean all that is rough and tumble and girly has come to mean all that is delicate and gentle surely proves the point about innate behaviour?

It's not that the word boyish was defined and then assigned to rambunctious boys, but the other way around, it came into being because boys ARE rambunctious