"The Vale"

[SimonM]

>>I thought that pairing was a bit cringe-making myself.<<

Yeah all that spit too...ewwwwww

[Ko]

I also remember when the Vale was quite popular - some of my friends practically lived there (although that may have been down to the bar staff). It was a lot smarter than some of other places in ED then. I also remember when Uplands was one of the smarter places to go in ED! Things have changed a lot in the last few years, although I'm glad to say that the EDT and CPT are still good places to go to.

[Keef]

Asset Wrote:

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> I thought that pairing was a bit cringe-making

> myself.

Didn't they have a gay fling at one point?

[snorky]

Wasnt that Iggly pop & David bowie ?

teh drugs were to blame IIRC

[Keef]

You're probably right Snorky.

[snorky]

Im sure Iggly and Davey shared a squat in Berlin or something- during Daveys flirtation with fascism - now conveniently airbrushed from the record books

Both were off their faces on teh charlie the entire time tho'

( although DB did "pork" MJ as a one off back in the early '70s by all accounts )

[scor46]

Interesting thread and its all been said before. But it does not change the fact that the pubs in ED and surrounding areas are really poor. I don?t want to criticize the landlords too much as there is a fundamental reason as to why they are so poor. (Come on to that in a minute) But it just does not change the fact the bars are very average. Over priced, poorly trained staffed, poor customer service, average fit outs, badly maintained, Drug & violence problems (Some of the managers & owners don?t know how to spot the drug issue never mind deal with it) and so on and so on?

I love living in ED and being a lad from Newcastle that?s a big statement to make. I enjoy the diversity of the area and I can even tolerate the ?mission mummies? but the pubs are really sad. When my pals come and visit I probably say something like ? we can stay on Lordship Lane, it?s not that good but it will do?.

So why are the pubs so poor? It?s quite simple really; they don?t have any money to reinvest. They make little or no profit at all. Most if not all of the Pubs in ED are ?tied pubs? (owned by Pubcos). The pub owners are ?tied? to buy beer from the pubco at an extortionate price. Most of the pubs are selling beer as a ?loss leader?, with Gross profit margins of circa 50% (In some cases they are way less than 50%) Gross profit is calculated by net takings minus cost of purchases. So this figure (GP) is what is left of your turnover before you factor in every other cost, i.e. wages, rent, rates, services, repairs and maintenance etc. I would even suggest that some of the pubs are trading illegally because there is no way that they can afford to pay VAT, PAYE etc (robbing Peter to pay Paul syndrome). I think a GP of 44% automatically triggers an investigation by the Inland Revenue.

For Pubs to make any sort of profit on beer so that they can reinvest in the premises, one of two things needs to happen: sell a pint for about ?4.50 a pint (now be sensible this will close every pub on the high street) or the law changes and allows the pubs to buy competitively direct from the brewers, out of tie. (JD Wetherspoon & the Plough are free of tie). The pubcos have artificially kept the price of a pint at roughly ?3 and they make all the profit. In general pubs could sell their beer at 50p or in some cases 60p less if it wasn?t for the pubcos tie.

The pubcos are a legalised cartel! They way they do business affects every person who likes a pint in this Country. There is no such thing as the traditional English pub anymore the industry is a joke! Out of the 65,000 pubs in this Country, approx 40,000 are owned by pubcos. How many people have left good jobs with a little bit of money or used their 25K redundancy to buy a pub and in a very short space of time have not only lost the lot but have lost their family house as well. Thousands of people have gone bankrupt because of the pubcos. And they don?t care because this has always been their ?fuel?. There will always be someone who thinks they can buy a pub and make a fortune. These people know nothing or very little about running a pub and they are just cannon fodder for the pubcos. The law needs to change because this affects us all.

So to keep on topic, it?s an unfair marketplace where only the pubcos will survive. Go to the Fox on the hill and see the sign on the wall that shows the drinks prices for a few of the pubs in the area. Obviously the Fox is by far the cheapest yet I can almost guarantee that the Fox is only one that is making any money. (The Fox is free of tie)

The pubs are crap in ED though mainly through no fault of the landlords..

Geezzz?. I do go on don?t I???

[Keef]

scor46 Wrote:

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> The pubs are crap in ED though mainly through no fault of the landlords..

Although in this particular case, he seems to do everything in his power to make it worse!

You make fair points, but I think it's a bit harsh to say "the pubs are crap in ED". There's definitely room for improvement, but they're not all bad.

[Gerrard]

I agree Keef. Perhaps scor46 has watched one too many Carlsberg adverts recently,

"we dont run pubs, but if we did...."

[Keef]

Er, he does ;-)

[chunky]

the vale hasnt charged on the door for the last 4 years lets get the facts straight and when they charge for the football by giving you raffle tickets can redeem these at the bar for drink or food and the reason they do it is to keep the trouble makers out lets try and give them a break hey

[*Bob*]

Just out of interest.. How do you rate your own pub, Scor46?

[mockney piers]

"the vale hasnt charged on the door for the last 4 years lets get the facts straight"

Well that's not true for starters is it.

The were quite happy to take a fiver each off a good dozen or more of us in July 2005 at then end of a wedding blessing celebration and then throw us all out 10 minutes and a pricey round later, no refund, for a completely baseless suspicion of alleged white stuff naughtiness, so no, they get no break from me.

Maybe a full refund and a public apology, that single act we reckon has cost him an absolute minimum of 10 grand turnover, so 150 odd quid would go a long way.

[Keef]

What he said.

[scor46]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Just out of interest.. How do you rate your own

> pub, Scor46?

The George Canning is a good pub, it is not a great pub and it certainly could be better. We are a ?tied pub?, which means we operate on a very low profit margin and have very little money if any to reinvest in the business. We get by with cost effective paint job once a year a general ?fix it when we can afford to? strategy. This is not ideal but ?tied pubs? don?t make the margins that the free of tie pubs do. I can only dream about spending upwards of ?200k to refit my pub like the Plough or the Phoenix can. The Pubcos (landlords) have bled us dry. I have owned and run pubs for over 25 years and this is the worst it has ever been, the pub trade is in turmoil. The knock on effect is that I pay only slightly more than minimum wage so I really struggle to find committed staff.

[serenity]

I really can't understand why someone would spend so much of their time slagging off a complete stranger's business! Why aren't we all supporting eachother in East Dulwich. We have such a vibrant community, where countless bars amd other businesses can survive side by side. Why not give the owners of the vale some constructive criticism? Why the need to put someone else down? I've only been to the Vale a few times. Although it may not be my cup of tea, I do not feel the need to slander them in the way that others have chosen. I wonder how "these" people would feel if someone indiscriminantly criticised their place of work and attacked their reputation? I really thought that this forum was eet up in order for the peole of East Dulwich to have sensible discussions and to help each other. Obviously, accusing complete strangers of being drug dealers and - in turn - trying to ruin their business is what amounts to humour?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Serenity

I applaud your sentiments but in this case (ie the Vale) I will make an exception and say that it is precisely BECAUSE he chooses to ignore constructive criticism AND treats people who have spent THOUSANDS of pounds with nothing but disrespect despite them being well behaved (compared to some I have seen in there) that I say this place deserves every kicking it gets

As for the community on here, Green & Blue, EDT, East Dulwich Deli, The CPT and others have all been part of a dialogue which has enhanced both the service of these places and their reputations - the Vale could either:

join in on here and discuss some of the strange policies

provide a more welcoming atmosphere

retain staff who are less than comfortable with some of it's attitudes to [sniiiiip - legal ed.]

[spadetownboy]

have to disagree sean,the vales my local mainly because i live just up the road from it and i have never in the 15 years i have drank there ever had a problem, i always find it quite welcoming and i am treated with the respect i deserve as a paying customer. as a counter balance to that i am not too fond of several pubs up and off the lane, i have never liked the edt and positively hated the forresters and the lord p, always felt unwelcome espicially in the last one,and i once got served a pint of fizzy guinness in the clockhouse, it hasnt stopped me though from still frequenting these establishments and their reincarnations. the vale dosent deserve every kicking it gets, and i wholeheartedly agree with what serenity has to say, some of the comments left on this thread have been nothing short of a damn disgrace, but then again i suppose the vale like a few other establishments, the harvester springs to mind, dosent fit into the cosy middle class claphamite ideal of what ed should be,so its fair game to slag it to high heaven i suppose.

[SeanMacGabhann]

i don't think that's the reason Spadetownboy - many of us were quite happy to frequent the Vale before events overtook us - it has nothing to do with any other bars or supposed middle-class prejudice. Enough comments have been written on here before as to it's shortcomings to be more than prejudice

To be absolutely fair - I can also see why some people don't have any problem. And that's not meant to be sarcastic. It's a good space, good condition beers and the sport is done well. If I never encountered any problems I would like it too.

[mockney piers]

Each to their own, if it rings your bell that's grand. I've been there a large number of times and I know what I've experienced there on more than one occasion, and I know what I don't like.

I'm happy to avoid the Palmerston for distaste, the Clockhouse for indifference and the Vale for abhorrence, that's my prerogative and no-one has to follow suit.

"Cosy middle class claphamite ideal"? You're better than that spadetownboy.

[ratty]

I was gonna pop in there last night, however, there is one punter in there who I cannot stand and it seems he is virtually always there. He goes out for a cig, barely outside the door and blows his smoke straight back into the pub. For some reason this makes my blood boil. Me as a reformed smoker of 5 months should not get angered by this but I do! It actually makes me want to kill!

[serenity]

Dear Sean and Mockney, thanks for taking my comments on board. The discussions that have ensued since my last posting are exactly the kind of comments which make me proud of this forum. As you have both pointed out, there is no need to slander anyone or pigeon hole people as stereoypes etc. One can only offer their opinion on thier own experiences. If it was a good or bad experience, fair enough. I just wasn't keen on the accusations of money laundering/ drugs etc (even if in jest). As atated before, people have their own personal tastes. However, places do change over time, so I hope that all recent opienions are based on recent experiences in the vale. I know that I may be being perceived as some stereotypical, guardian reading, liberal , female, middle-class girl, but I think that every one deserves a second, third and maybe fourth chance. If you like the venue, but are not keen on the running of it, surely there is a way of having a cosy, civilised chat with the management and offering ideas. I know that you - Mockney - have said that you've tried, but what happened? You talk of a "He"? Is this the owner? If it is, find it hard to believe (I'm not accusing anyone of lying, I might add) that he would openly disrespect a whole group of people, let alone for no reason. People behave in a certain way as they are reacting to something they have perceived (rightly OR wrongly).

I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be good if the Vale joined us in our discussions. That way, perceived inaccuracies can be ironed out and improvements can be made. I think that once this happens, a lot of misunderstandings may be ironed out. I know, I'm the eternal optimist!!! Anyway, hope all you guys on the forum are welland that you had an ace Halloween. I dressed up as a witch (no jokes please!).

Best Wishes,

Serenity xxx

PS. Ratty, you've probably alrweady done this, but, you should complain to the manager about the offending smoker. No one should have to put up with wbat he is doing. That would make my blood boil too! Unfortunatley, wherever you go, you'll alwayts have a handful of morons vying to be the classic alpha-male.

[Keef]

I think there's a bit of a difference here in that spadetownboy and others have talked about this place as a pub, and I'm sure in the days and evenings it's quite nice, and a great place to watch footy.

However, the problems I have with it are when it turns in to the night spot with the bouncers and the manager thinking he needs to stand there all night on the door. He really can't trust his doormen much if he can't let them handle the money. There used to be one lovely bouncer there (black guy bald head), but others have been arse holes, and the manager has never been friendly to me and I did used to go and spend a lot of money there.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I walk pass there every day and often see the manager. I dont know him - but he always grins at me like a long lost friend. I think I have only ever drunk in there half a dozen times and not for ages.

NTV.

[Bellenden04]

I must add I think the Vale is the worst place to go, I used to think it was ok but has really gone down hill, I think it needs to be replaced with another late night venue with good music and a good atmosphere.