dangerous dog: Where do I stand?

[cate]

This site doesn't exactly fill you with good thoughts towards Staffies:-

http://www.ukandspain.com/dangerous-dogs/

[genwilliams]

Your post, and firstmate's post, make sense.

The number of mistreated or badly trained, uncontrollable dogs around makes a strong case for making it illegal to own a dog without having proved you have the will and understanding to look after it properly. Equally, I think it's a shame to just dismiss the 'scarier' breeds across the board as dangerous and call for them to be banned. With few exceptions, a well-trained dog will be a joy to its owner and those who the owner allows the dog to get close to - and the owner won't let the dog near others! My aunt & uncle are saluki breeders, and have always had a rottweiler as a guard dog. Said guard dog is also a pet, and is treated lovingly and firmly; she knows what's allowed and doesn't stray beyond it.

I definitely agree that smaller dogs need training too. I do not refer to the OP here as it doesn't sound like she was at fault at all, but generally better training of all dogs, so they don't react badly to new faces (human or otherwise) would minimise these sorts of incidents.

hpsaucey Wrote:

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> So we're back to getting dog licences and making

> sure that potential dog owners get training?

> Should be like passing your driving test. Then

> again, think new parents should be trained too!

> Seems ridiculous that you have to be trained to

> drive a car, but can be guardian/parent of a child

> or owner of a dog without any training!

[Keef]

Some dog owners are just stupid. Recently a dog jumped at my daughter in the park, whilst she was in her buggy. I'm sure the dog meant no harm, but she got a right fright, and the owner came walking along about a minute later, and said "not to worry, he doesn't bite", like that makes it okay for it to be running around out of the owners sight, and jumping at kids in buggies.

I love dogs, but dog owners are a very mixed bag.

With regards the OP, sorry to hear about your experience.

With regards the title to this thread, jimmy-two-times got in there first with

Stand as far away from the dog as is humanly possible.

Which was the first thing I thought too.

[Kidneypunch!]

This is very sad to hear indeed, & is indicative of the moral decline of our nation. I suggest you report the incident to the proper authorities forthwith. My thoughts are with your daughter at this time !

[Kidneypunch!]

testing

[Jaws]

Wow - this is a horrible story...I hope you and you dog are all OK...

Can you give us a discription of the owner/dog? As I have a little dog and often walk her over Peckham Rye and really don't fancy bumping into this pair.

[aquarius moon]

I would just like to clarify my situation, due to the misunderstandings & mixed reactions to my original post.

First of all, I am not a clever troll,(HAL 9000), but a genuine regular poster on this forum. If you click on my name, you will see my previous contributions.

Secondly, I never said that the incident occurred in the park. I simply said that I lived the other side of peckham rye park because I did not want small dog owners in ED worrying un-necessarily. I stopped walking my dogs in the park ages ago, for fear of this kind of thing occuring. I then began walking them in nunhead cemetery but gave up after meeting too many large out of control dogs.

The only option left is to walk them on the pavements, where at least most dogs are on a lead. We were doing this on saturday, walking down a quiet residential road off ivydale rd. My dogs were on leads & under control. The staff charged out of an open garden gate & grabbed my dog. It happened so quickly that neither me or the dogs had time to react. It was totally unprovoked. My little dogs love other dogs & have never had any reason to show any aggression towards one. It was not a dog 'fight'. It was an attack, pure & simple.

I have taken the advice of the many caring,sympathetic people on here & contacted my local safe neighbourhood team. Thanks for helping.

As for the rest......no comment.

[first mate]

am, Good for you. Please let us know how it goes.

For what it is worth I have had to grab various offlead staffy types, when they have meandered up to me and my dog whilst walking on the pavement. Many dogs on a lead can feel intensely threatened when a dog that is offlead goes up to them- this is how fights can begin and why outside of parks and gardens people should always walk their dogs on a lead-there is really no excuse.

In your case am it is clear your dog did nothing to provoke the attack other than simply existing.

[northlondoner]

Well done AM. Hope you and daughter ok

[SteveT]

Good for you AM lets hope he and his dog tastes the wrath of the safe neighbourhood team.

The dangerous dogs act is as toothless as this vicious toothless dog.

Having clicked on cate's link and seen the types of wounds and deaths caused, it makes you feel you need armaments to

walk down a street, or cross a park,

just because of the large number of obnoxious social misfits and their untrustworthy animals.

[cate]

Aquarius Moon, So glad you reported the matter. It takes courage to do that. A friend reported a dangerous Rottweiler before - not in this area - who was completely out of control, and who used to attack other dogs and humans, including biting a woman who picked up her small dog to get it away from the Rottie. The owner was a jerk and strutted around with his dog presumably to make him feel better about his short size amongst other things. I was also knocked over by this dog when it galloped up behind me. It took a while but eventually the dog wasn't seen much any more. Was also threatened by the owner, verbally, because he thought I had reported it even though I hadn't. I did report his threat though.

[david_carnell]

I have found myself drawing parallels with dogs and guns.

The gun-lobby will make the argument that guns don't kill people, "people kill people" and therefore responsible owners should be allowed weaponary such as AK47s or M16s. Utter piffle.

Owners of "dangerous dogs" such as those listed on the website above claim that the dogs are not the problem, only irresponsible owners. Exactly the same argument. Exactly the same piffle.

But guns aren't cuddly and cute so we ban them except the ones we need for work (like shotguns) or used by the police. Perhaps dangerous dogs should be limited in use in the same way? Ergo, the only dogs people are allowed are ones that cannot cause any harm due to their passive nature or small size.

All large, dangerous breeds should be licensed and neutered and prevented from breeding until they die out. There is no need to have one, they can cause untold harm and we should make their ownership a criminal offence.

[cate]

Interesting post david_carnell. I often wonder what draws people to certain breeds. For example, why would you want to have a dog that needed to be leashed or muzzled all the time or a dog that you couldn't trust around people or other dogs. I wasn't even aware of the Staffie as a breed until I moved to South London and noticed considerable amounts of them. I asked a woman in the vet one day why she had one - there were at least three in there that day - and she said "they are really good with kids". Then I noticed that they were used as hard man accessories by young men. When did this fashion for Staffies and other bulldog types start? 10-12 years ago perhaps?

[dubluke]

cate Wrote:

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> Interesting post david_carnell. I often wonder

> what draws people to certain breeds. For example,

> why would you want to have a dog that needed to be

> leashed or muzzled all the time or a dog that you

> couldn't trust around people or other dogs. I

> wasn't even aware of the Staffie as a breed until

> I moved to South London and noticed considerable

> amounts of them. I asked a woman in the vet one

> day why she had one - there were at least three in

> there that day - and she said "they are really

> good with kids". Then I noticed that they were

> used as hard man accessories by young men. When

> did this fashion for Staffies and other bulldog

> types start? 10-12 years ago perhaps?

I think historically they have been used by 'hard men' for dog fighting and bear baiting etc. - so whilst they are used by them for a different reason these days I think that the idea of them being used or trained for an agressive purpose is not a new one. When well trained they have been known to be good with kids, but many of them are trained specifically for the purpose of fighting other dogs and attacking people, I see guys in the small park/green across my street doing this, they get them to bite a stick and then lift it up in the air with the dog still biting it and encourage the dog to hold on as long as possible, I think the idea is to get them in the habit of not letting go of things once they have clamped their jaws on them, as well as to strengthen their bite (if you get what I mean, bit of a badly constructed sentence) - in order to behave in the same way during a dog fight/attack.

[jimmy two times]

I've heard if you get attacked by one of these dogs the best thing to do once it clamps it's jaws round you is to stick your fingers in it's eyes. I have also heard that if you grab it's hind legs it will also release it's grip. A bit tricky if it's got one of your appendages in it's mouth I grant you. Those same techniques work on the owners as well.

[first mate]

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are generally very good with people and children, ironically this is because they were developed for fighting in the pits and for bull baiting. They are stalwart and therefore prepared to be pulled around by children in a way many other breeds are not.

Ironically their fighting past is what makes them so good and so biddable with people (they could be pulled off another dog in the pit without the owner getting bitten, as would happen in many other cases of owner intervention in a dog fight)that past also makes them unreliable with other dogs and once they go they will not give in, hence the popular myth of the locked jaw- it's not locked, they simply have an iron will and are relatively impervious to pain.

Many so-called Staffs are mixed up with other breeds and the pure Staff temperament may be compromised. Add a guard breed into the Staff gene pool and you have a lethal mix. People have to tread much more carefully around guard breeds if they have not been properly trained and socialised from puppyhood-think GSD, Dobermann, Rottie. In the right hands - great dogs. I think this is where things have really gone awry: with the crossbreeds. Might look like a Staff but you can't tell.

In addition, as we know, too many bull breeds attract the wrong sort of owner, lazy, ignorant and irresponsible. In the link that cate gave about dangerous dogs there are terrible stories, but I note that in one about a Staff that attacked a child the dog was in fact a rescue, and an entire male, they'd only had him for 2 months but were already leaving their toddlers alone with him. My heart bleeds for the parents but their ignorance is astounding. You never ever leave any dog alone with toddlers- and no, they are not nannies.

I believe the biggest problem is the easy access of far too many to dog ownership. Wish I had a reasonable solution.

[Keef]

Good post D_C.

[Moos]

Of course where the gun analogy falls down is that a gun's sole purpose is to shoot bullets, it is solely a weapon. A dog can be used as a weapon, but also has a 'function' as a pet or companion. The argument is interesting but too black and white.

[eater81]

Please PM me the address of this prick, I will go round there with my henchmen and kick the shit out of him on your behalf. I am not joking.

[HAL9000]

eater81 Wrote:

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> Please PM me the address of this prick, I will go

> round there with my henchmen and kick the shit out

> of him on your behalf. I am not joking.

That is mighty neighbourly of you - it's good to know there are people like you living close by.

[cate]

Has anyone ever met eater81? Do you have a job eater81 and if so what is it?

[daizie]

No but i hope he comes to the drinks

[Andystar]

I apologise in advance for this

[Jeremy]

I'm no fan of bull-breed dogs by any means, and I understand where DC is coming from... but I don't think a selective ban is enforcable. Cross-breeding makes it very difficult to categorise which dogs are potentially dangerous. I think regulations would have to be brought in across all breeds.

[citizenED]

I agree that it is difficult to have a selective ban on some types of dogs. The solution is to ban private ownership of dogs. Put dogs in zoos along with other animals. All the dog owners can get a hamster, gerbil or meerkat instead.