dangerous dog: Where do I stand?

[DirtyBox]

Of course where the gun analogy falls down is that a gun's sole purpose is to shoot bullets, it is solely a weapon. A dog can be used as a weapon, but also has a 'function' as a pet or companion.

but these dogs have been bred to fight, that's their sole reason for existing, if you want a companion or pet you wouldn't choose a lion

[Brendan]

They?d only go and breed fighting gerbils.

[Moos]

DirtyBox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> but these dogs have been bred to fight, that's

> their sole reason for existing, if you want a

> companion or pet you wouldn't choose a lion

...except that someone was quoted on this thread as saying she had one because they're great with kids. So it's not that simple.

[Mscrawthew]

Some FACTS to read through instead of opinions taken in via the media hype regarding not only Staffordshire Bull Terriers but other dogs.

http://www.dogbiteclaims.co.uk/dangerous-breeds.html

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/87 Please note this is an accredited organisation`s view on Staffords

Characteristics

Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children.

http://www.helium.com/items/679494-dog-breed-facts-staffordshire-bull-terrier

http://www.saferpets.co.uk/SafeDogBreedsForChildren.html Suprise, Suprise there is a stafford in the list.

It has said before I will say it again ANY dog if not socialised from any early age will be dog aggresive and ANY dog that is allowed to become pack leader despite it`s size will cause problems for it`s keeper. I cannot understand how so many so called intelligent people can class one breed of dog as being a bad breed when common sense tells you its down to the individuals upbringing and treatment by the owner. Yes, there a lot of idiots out there who do not know how to treat their dogs properly and use them because they have small penises and couldn`t fight their way out of a paper bag and therefore have to use a dog to make themselves look macho and listened to the media hype and accuired a bull breed. But there are many more individuals that have bull breeds who know the real facts regarding their characters and take time to train their dogs to be very well behaved members of their families.

There has been an explosion of bull breed owners and therefore it makes total sense that reported incidences with a breed which is probably has the highest population in the country will be higher. If this country was full of a certain breed of snake then it would be that particular species reported on a regular basis. Do you not think that everytime an incident is highlighted regarding a bullbreed that responsible owners don`t care? We fight everyday for common sense to prevail over what is now becoming a witch hunt for particular breeds when it is the owner and not the breed who needs to be locked up and then pts on a cold , hard metal table with a lethal injection because it certainly isn`t the dogs fault.

[first mate]

MSC,

Well said.

[DirtyBox]

Pity the links in MSC's post don't agree:

http://www.dogbiteclaims.co.uk/dangerous-breeds.html - no.5 most agressive - Cocker Spaniel

http://www.saferpets.co.uk/SafeDogBreedsForChildren.html - Cocker Spaniel "sensitive, affectionate and intelligent little dog which requires some grooming and a fair amount of exercise. They have keen hunting instincts and can be strong-willed."

And while we are on the subject, the kennel club is only interested in looks of a dog breed and doesn't give a toss about breeding in serious genetic defects and in-breeding..nice people...I must trust them.

Just becuase there is something on the internet doesn't make it true

[Mscrawthew]

It`s also a pity that people pick holes without offering any alternative information. You may have provided the fact that cocker spaniels may or may not be suitable to have around children but for someone who can make a statement that a certain breed of dog is soley bred for dog fighting really needs to open their mind! Just because The Sun prints something it doesn`t make it gospel either.

[DirtyBox]

So just so we are clear, were staffs bred to fight? Simple question, yes or no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Bull_Terrier

I don't read the Sun or the Daily Mail and I also don't own a staff..I assume you do..who has a closed mind?

My point is you are using these links to back up an argument that staffs are great family pets when the sources you quote don't even agree, therefore they have no credibility.

[Mscrawthew]

Staffords were also breed to herd Bulls but they haven`t been specifically bred for dog fighting or Bull herding for years. They have been family pets for a long time and up until the media started scaremongering and helping to increase the problem of twats owning a bullbreed because of the hype and misinformation they have spouted, Staffords wern`t even mentioned in mainstream gutter press or anywhere else for that matter. Because of a very small minority a large majority get slated. Stafford owners are not all Chavs and young adolesent boys. I have a closed mind because I own a Stafford?

[Mscrawthew]

They disagree on the cocker spaniel and the Stafford doesn`t appear to be in the bite statistic survey and surely even if the Kennel club has it`s faults it wouldn`t be stupid enough to recommend a dog as a child friendly dog if they were as bad as the press and everyone who believe`s what they spout were true, Surely?

[taper]

Dirtybox

No.

Alsatians are far worse than staffs. The increase in problems with bull breeds is caused by an explosion a desire to own one among people who are idiots and shouldn't own a dog. If you go visit Battersea Dogs' home about 90% of the dogs in there are "status dogs". Five years ago it was the minority.

[first mate]

Dirty Box,

What are the facts upon which you base your conclusions about the Kennel Club?

Cocker Spaniels generally make great family pets. As we know, however, lots of people buy a dog without knowing how to bring them up etc.. (bit like people who have kids but are rotten parents) a badly brought up dog can behave badly. Cockers are a popular dog therefore the liklihood of them turning up in any set of statistics is greater, both as biters (result of bad owners)and as good family pets. There is another element, it is believed that solid coloured, red, Cockers may be prone to a type of neurological problem that manifests as sudden, out of the blue, rage attacks- known as cocker rage.

Yes, staffs were in part bred for fighting OTHER DOGS, not people. As already explained, they were developed to be highly affectionate and biddable to people. The Staffs that attack people are either crossbreeds, fruitloops or have ignorant/bad owners that do things like leaving them alone with a toddler (a seriously bonkers thing to do)or abuse them through puppyhood to make them wary and aggressive to humans.

My own problem with Staffs and the like is the people that own them. Anyone who owns a Staff should know that they have to take extra care around other dogs and animals outside their own household. A properly brought up Staff will have been carefully socialised with other dog breeds and have learned what will and won't be tolerated- such dogs are little problem.The bad owner will usually insist on keeping their bull breed entire and that creates further problems.

The much bigger issue is that dogs that look like Staffs probably have something else in them and so you don't know what mad mix you are dealing with

[bonniebird]

first mate, you always speak a lot of sense about dogs, I was gonna mention Cocker rage(tu) Do you work with dogs?

[SteveT]

What are the facts upon which you base your conclusions about the Kennel Club?

wrote first mate.

There was recently a programme about the KC and the way it has been operating. One part of the programme was filmed at a dog show, the winner was a German Shepherd which was soooo weak in the back legs it couldn't stand up without being supported by the owner's hand placed under it's stomach, as soon as the helping hand was removed the dog collapsed.

They also highlighted the facts about king charles spaniels having heart defects which reduced their lives to four years.

Soon after this programme went out Pedigree Chum pulled out of supporting the KC losing them their single greatest financial source of income.

Bull terriers had been losing their popularity since the forties, and it only became more popular when illicit dog fighting became big and the money stakes rose accordingly.

Another boost to it's popularity was in the black market drug industry. When the friendly neighbourhood dealer discovered that the bull terrier could keep at bay the police dogs long enough for him to make his escape from the police.

If we have to put up with these creatures why not have them muzzled in public places, is it too difficult for us to organise something so simple?

[first mate]

Steve T

The Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme which you refer to was highly contentious. Yes, there are problems in some breeds, but the KC was already on to the German Shepherd club before the programme was made. I saw the programme in question and have to say that although valid points were made there was a terrific lack of balance, the KC was not represented fairly (though it did not help itself by the quality of interviewee on offer).

I am neither an apologist for the KC or for the PDE documentary but the simplistic view that all line breeding is inherently wrong and all outcrossing is inherently right is misleading, as is the notion that crossbreeds are always more healthy. The whole territory of genetics and hereditary disease is much more complex and breeders are learning. Sure you get bad apples and money- making opportunists but I would say the majority of pedigree dog breeders care passionately about their animals and in ensuring they are as healthy as they look.

A virtue of the pedigree animal is that in terms of look, size, temperament, drive (and some knowledge of illness in the line) you pretty much know from generation to generation what you are getting, with a crossbreed you don't. This is why line breeding is used in producing livestock, the successful farmer wants to know what he'll get.

In the view of many in the dog world the whole furore around PDE was misplaced energy. A far greater concern is the puppy farmer and back yard breeder who do not register their dogs with the KC. They'll mix up any old combination of breeds if they think it'll sell and they don't care about temperament or health and they are the reason why we see so many rescues overflowing with unwanted bull breed crosses and why out on the street you'll see a thug with his bull breed bitch, nipples almost to the ground because she is being used as a money making machine. Forgive me, this has sweet *f* all to do with the Kennel Club.

Finally, Pedigree Chum withdrew their sponsorship from Crufts an annual event. Who cares. I would not feed something like that to my dog anymore than I would feed my kids on a diet of chips. (Sorry Admin if I cannot say that here)

[ImpetuousVrouw]

I have to put my two penneth worth in here.

My dog is a staff cross and I got him when he was 10 months old as a rescue, I offered to take him from someone who was unable to look after him. He is 4 and a half now.

He is castrated and has never attacked a dog or human.

He has been attacked, however by other dogs. His first attack was just after I had started looking after him when he ran over to a big pitbull to say hello and the pitbull grabbed my dog by the throat in his huge jaws. I had to kick and beat the pitbull with the dog lead to try to get it off my dog and the owner tried to have a go at me for saving my dog. This was in Dulwich Park. This dog was not castrated and my dog was totally unable or unwilling to fight back.

The second time he was attacked was a couple of months later in Peckham Rye Park by a horrible weimaraner who bit through my dog's ear. The owner then went into a diatribe about how pitbulls are shot on site in Australia and seemed to be happy that his dog had injured my 'hard' staff cross. This dog was not castrated and my dog was totally unable or unwilling to fight back.

A few months after that my dog was attacked by an airdale terrier in Dulwich Park and the middle class owner again thought it was great that his aggressive dog had attacked my 'hard' bull breed dog. This dog was also not castrated and my dog was totally unable or unwilling to fight back.

About two years ago, my dog, who had become slightly more dominant as he'd got older, but also less inclined to approach dogs he doesn't know, was attacked by an akita. My dog spun round and placed his front paw on the akita's back and they stood motionless. I told the akita owner to hold his dog tight and I'd lift my dog off of him so that they didn't fight. I pulled my dog into the air and the stupid akita owner was unable to control his dog, so he managed to bite my dog on his tail and broke his tail.

My bull breed dog lives happily with two cats and has lived with chickens without even chasing them. He is bossed around by kids in the family and has never even snapped at them when they are pulling him about or playing in his feeding bowls.

He is still a friendly sociable dog and has never bitten another dog despite having been attacked in the past.

So after reading all the crap about bull breed dogs, from people who have never owned one, here are some of my reasons for owning one.

And I'd like you to tell me how my dog should be classed as a dangerous dog, when the other breeds who attacked my dog and who are never mentioned when this argument is played over and over again, were the ones who behaved like aggressive, dangerous dogs.

[Huggers]

The point of the original incident is a dog- whatever breed- was out of control in the street without its owner- it had rushed out from its house. It sounds like a very territorial dog that probably guards its door. Knowing this, the owner was a fool to let it dash out and confront whatever it believed was 'on its land'.

Whatever the breed, this would have been a very frightening experience.

If the dog really had not teeth, and this was a one off, an apology and explanation might have assuaged her fears. Instead the man hurled frightening abuse.

To me the most scarey thing is the man more than the dog, using horrible language to a woman and her child.

[first mate]

Huggers,

Quite.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

I just get fed up with the bull-breed bashing that goes on here so felt the need to put my point in that regard.

Sorry if I've taken the thread further off track, normal service will be resumed.

[Huggers]

and to add, dogs really do want to be like you-hoo and can easily turn into emotional amplifications of all their owners neurosis, prejudices, paranoas, hostilities and fears. Hence, so important for calm training...for both!

[pepsi]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's get some perspective here folks - it's a bit

> premature for a lynch mob.

>

> We only have one side of the story and no

> independent confirmation that such an incident

> even took place. It wouldn't be the first time

> that the forum has been wound up by a clever

> troll.

>

> Assuming AM is a genuine poster and a fair

> witness, surely there is a counter argument here:

> walking three small dogs that are unable to defend

> themselves against larger aggressors in this

> neighbourhood is an incident waiting to happen. An

> attack was inevitable given the number of

> aggressive breeds running around loose.

>

> It is fair to assume that the owner of the staff

> loves his dog as much as AM loves her dogs and was

> probably quite upset at the sight of his old,

> toothless dog being beaten and kicked and then -

> according to the OP's account - being shouted at

> when he came to her assistance.

>

> In conclusion, it was a dogfight, nobody got hurt,

> tempers flared and, hopefully, lessons have been

> learnt.

>

> One would hope that AM invests in some spiked wolf

> collars if she intends to continue exposing her

> little doggies to such foreseeable dangers in the

> future - she now knows the answer to her own

> question: it isn't safe.

What on earth are you talking about? If you're trying to be funny you're failing miserably, if you're being serious you need help.

[HAL9000]

Take a number and join the queue.

[RosieH]

I used to own a Staff and he was gorgeous, lovely, super-super friendly, and we never once had a problem with him. He didn't bite anyone or any other dog.

Also had a cocker spaniel, he too was lovely, but much more snappy, and did bite a couple of times (luckily only my dad, who probably deserved it).

Also had a Rhodesian Ridgeback - originally bred to hunt lions, all you wiki-fans. Gorgeous, massive and friendly.

All had the same training, same environment. The two more "dangerous" types never once bit anyone, were fine with other dogs and were the nicest, most affectionate and intuitive pets I've ever had the good fortune to have in my life. THAT's the reason most people want dogs, they want affectionate breeds that are great with kids.

So my point is that all this muzzles talk is so much bullshit. If you want to put muzzles on dogs, put muzzles on ALL dogs - you don't know which dogs will bite and which won't. Just because a Jack Russell can't bite an adult in the throat, doesn't mean that the bite doesn't really fucking hurt and wouldn't do a lot of damage to a toddler.

And to D_C's point - David, wtf? Usually so considered. Are you proposing we ban any dog that's ever been bred to hunt anything , or any dog breed that has ever been reported as biting??? Sorry hon, but I can't help but group you with every boyfriend I ever had who was scared of my dog and consequently considered quite the lily liver.

[SteveT]

It sounds good practice to me RosieH, muzzle all dogs as you suggest, before they leave home and reach the street.

[Huggers]

edited for unwiseness.