mixed sex education

[new mother]

Dear all,

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the following.

Our first daughter is coming up for school registration etc and we are debating whether to go for a mixed or girls' school. My husband and I both went to single sex schools and are very aware of the problems these can cause some people in later life - relating to the opposite sex, forming relationships, understanding the opposite sex as people and not just bf or gf etc. Half of the population is the opposite sex and it seems mad to cocoon a child from boys when she will work with men and socialise with men for the rest of her life. All of that indicates in favour of a mixed school.

OTOH, girls do academically much better in girls' schools and this is important in a society obsessed with league tables and entrance to a good university. There is obviously no issue about "being feminine" or dumbing oneself down in sciences and mathematics to fit with being more popular with the boys. (We understand from friends that this does happen, unfortunately.) We suspect that mixed schools could well have further issues and pressures that we aren't aware of.

If we have a slight preference, I probably incline towards mixed and my husband towards single sex.

So, we are prettily well on the fence and in the dark, to mix two metaphors. We're interested in anyone's personal experience or observation and also in the experiences of children today which might be particularly relevant I suppose.

Many thanks for your thoughts.

[Fuschia]

Some mixed sex schools will teach girls and boys separately for some subjects.

I think I'd probably choose a girls school for a daughter and mixed for a son (hence many "mixed" schools are boy heavy in areas where there are also girls schools.) But I went to mixed school myself.

IME girls schools have a very particular atmosphere and ethos that many find attractive...

[Knomester]

I haven't reached the stage of having to make the decision you are facing (my first baby being due in August) but I went to a mixed school and therefore may be able to contribute. My school was a normal C of E comprehensive and was not in the best of areas however there was a great ethos and pupils achieved. There was a strong focus on mixing girls and boys so, for example, from 11- 16 I not only learnt to play what are traditionally known as 'girls sports' I also did football, basketball, mixed hockey, etc. For athletics in the summer we were mixed and in track for example the top girls would race the top boys. All pupils also studied what was CDT (Craft Design & Technology), Home Economics, Sewing, etc together, regardless of sex. I think we thrived on this mixed environment.

I certainly don't recall any particular pressures (such as 'dumbing down to fit in'). Had I had the opportunity to attend a private school I dare say I may have been able to do marginally better with grades but I'm not sure that being a single sex school would have made any difference. My baby brother (18 years my junior) is at a mixed private school now - he has 3 big sisters so mixes pretty well with the opposite sex anyway (!) - and is doing as well as he would anywhere (concentration span of a gnat...).

From my personal experience (and I know I have no experience of single sex education to compare) I would choose mixed education for my child for the reasons you mention - that society is mixed. A huge part of school based education is the socialisation, learning to mix with others and hold your own which, in the big wide world, involves both sexes.

[Magpie]

Both sexes tend to perform better at School in single sex environments, and given that in general boys underperform girls, it makes more sense to send a boy to a single sex school rather than a girl.

Also most of the reasons cited for better performance (ie the distraction provided by the opposite sex) are really secondary school issues, rather than primary school.

[monniemae]

Girls do better academically overall in single sex schools. But, most single sex schools are a) selective and b) self-selecting, ie, the girls were always going to do better.

I think the fact her father would rather send her to a single-sex school gives the game away... Mixed schools aren't suddenly going to turn your child into a dumbed down strumpet. If anything they'll always know how to get along in a mixed, sometimes macho environment. I went to both. Bright and medium-bright girls did well at both. But the price of single-sex education and the attending pressure is a disproportionate number of eating disorders, drug and alcohol misuse, self-harming and ferocious bitching. The flip side was an ingrained sense of "gender blindness" when it came to choosing our life options. But most of my friends have that anyway, regardless of where they went to school, and it's as much about your home environment as anything.

I actually treasure the friendships and experiences I had at single-sex school, but you can tell which side of the debate I come down on! Best of luck working out what's best for you guys though.

[monniemae]

Magpie, while it's true that girls do better academically, research shows boys do NOT do better. If you are simply talking about single-sex education (as opposed to private education) then in fact academically girls would be better off in single-sex and boys in mixed schools where they do better in maths and science.

[DaveR]

It's a tough choice, and no right or wrong answers. It's also not a choice you can make in a vacuum - I'm sure you're doing this already, but you need to go and look at the schools themselves, talk to teachers and if possible parents about their experiences of strengths/weaknesses of single sex vs mixed.

And, as has already been observed, be very wary of relying on stats to draw simple conclusions about causation. One of the best chapters in Freakonomics was about Chicago schools; stats revealed that when parents signed up for a scheme that placed kids from deprived areas in schools in wealthier areas, their kids got better results whether they got a place at one of those schools or not.

[observermum]

I would say mixed for primary age - then single-sex for secondary (yrs 7-11)- with mixed 6th form if possible

[Magpie]

It was my understanding that both girls and boys perform better in single sex education than in mixed, but girls still have the edge, other than in Maths and Physics

[monniemae]

from the Intitute of Education study (2006): "single-sex education brought almost no advantage in terms of exam results. Girls from girls? schools did only slightly better in exams than their co-educational peers. Boys did no better at all (allowing for differences in ability and family background). While girls at girls? schools were slightly more likely than girls in mixed schools to gain five or more O-levels at grades A ? C, this advantage did not carry through to further and higher education. There was no impact of single-sex schooling on maths test scores at age 16, nor did single-sex schooling make it more likely for pupils to gain any A-levels at all, to get a university degree by age 33, or to enter high-status occupations. Dr Sullivan says: ?Our research emphatically does not support the suggestion that achievement is higher in single-sex schools.?

http://www.cls.ioe.ac.uk/news.asp?section=000100010003&item=335

see also...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/why-singlesex-schools-are-bad-for-your-health-if-youre-a-boy-1831636.html

http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/news/newsarchive2006/ceer-coed.html

[tiddles]

I went to a mixed primary which I loved, and a single sex girls school and hated it. Therefore I have sent my two to mixed primary and just finishing first year of mixed secondary. There seems to be such a level of acceptance by the sexes, lots of nice platonic friendships and no nonsense about friends of the opposite sex. It so depends upon the child tho - when they get to the right age, see what they would prefer.

[new mother]

ladies/gentlemen,

Thank you very much for all of these contributions. They are all very helpful and raise issues that we would not havce considered otherwise.

ANy other thoughts anyone?

[gwod]

Choose the school you like not the principle you like - there is a balance to be made in both environments between social roundedness and academic acheivement, it's the school that makes the best of that balance you need to choose. (or in my case, the school allocated to my family by the local authority!)

Also I think for me the shape of my family would make a difference to my choice - as the mum of 4 girls I dont think I'd send them to an all girl's school - they would have a very skewed view of the world!!

[BB100]

Generalising by gender often ignores children's unique personalities and how an ethos of a school results in different outcomes for children regardless of their sex.

You need to find a school that your child will comfortably settle in and will do well as a person and not as a girl.

[Magpie]

Interesting - this bit was also useful

"A study of people now in their 40s has revealed that those who went to single-sex schools were more likely to study subjects not traditionally associated with their gender than those who went to co-educational schools."

"The researchers found that at age 16, girls in girls? schools were more likely to gain maths and science A-levels, and boys in boys? schools more liable to gain A-levels in English and modern languages than their peers in co-educational schools."

[monniemae]

Yes, I guess with education many people take what fits the choices they've already made.

[EDZ]

I went to a single sex school and loved it. Yes, there was a period of extraordinary bitching around the age of 13-14, but after that it calmed down. What I liked was that we were always so relaxed around each other in the class-room. Lying on the floor with legs sprawled out during break, not self-conscious during gym. We mixed a lot with the boys schools so I don't think anyone got too socially deprived of male company. Academically we were defenitly told to over and over to achieve and that being a girl did not mean we should preclude ourselves from any career. However, more than anything it is the school itself which is important. I would rather send my daughter to an excellent mixed school than an ok single sex school.

[Keef]

I went to a mixed primary (St John's, back when it was on Northcross / Archdale Roads), and we had really good sex education when we were about 10/11 years old. Most of it was done mixed, and one or 2 sessions were done seperately, such as the girls being taken off to have a talk about periods, which is understandable, and probably a lot more comfortable for the girls.

I went to a single sex secondary (Aske's, when it was Boys school and girls school with mixed 6th form), and frankly, the sex education we got there was shocking, and I'd had much better from primary.

[gwod]

Keef - you actually didn't read thread did you?

Good to know about your sex ed though!

[Keef]

Ha ha :-$

Only read the first couple of posts (whilst on a train), and thought that's what they were talking about. because Fuschia said "Some mixed sex schools will teach girls and boys separately for some subjects".

In that case, I'd personally go for mixed. The only reason Aske's had a great mixed choir / orchestra / symphonic band in my day was because the rehearsals were the only chance you got to go and mix with the girls, so we all couldn't wait to sign up! I don't think it makes you scared of the opposite sex, or anyhting that severe, but I think mixed schools probably help kids to be more understanding of each other.

[new mother]

Keef, the funny thing is that I too read the heading and thought the same thing.

err and it's my thread.

baby brain anyohne? ;-)

[new mother]

Keef, re your post, on the same basis, any debates vs boys' schools organised by my (all girls) school attracted the most remarkable attendances, often from girls with no previous interest in debating, but a lot of eyeliner and regulation skirts specially shortened for the event.

[Smiler]

I too thought the thread was about sex education. Will never forget the condom-over-cucumber mixed sex-education session in secondary school!

[expat]

>condom-over-cucumber

A cucumber?!?!?

[Smiler]

Yes, cucumber. The boys in the class were mortified, probably gave them all a complex!