M&S

[LondonMix]

Is it any bigger than the co-op though? With the huge Sainsbury nearby, M&S can't hope to compete as a major supermarket for major weekly shopping. Surely, people will shop there as they do at the co-op, except they'll also have the option for M&S convenience food, lunch stuff and picnic food. Also, the co-op is horrid so they'll have to benefit of fresh produce and a clean store...

M&S Food, with very few exceptions only sell their own brand products (only started selling Coke in recent times). Its not like you go there to buy nappies, toothpaste etc. Maybe the Food Hall format has changed but that's how I remember it. Happy to be corrected though as I know these shops are always tinkering with their offerings.

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> Louisa, I do agree, it's not been thought out in

> terms of practicality - it seems they were more

> interested in maximising financial return (hence

> removal of the cark park).

>

> As a massive food store, it's akin to opening a

> Sainsbury's and not allowing for any parking.

>

> A convenience store implies you're just picking up

> one or two items and can hoof it without a car.

> A huge shop implies a weekly shop and I'll be

> darned if I'm carrying anything myself on that

> scale.

>

> I'd probably pop into the carwash and go shopping

> then.

[DulwichFox]

I really believe M&S have got this one wrong...

When you take the car.. you don't want to trudge through the back streets ..

with heavy shopping .. in the rain trying to find where you left it..

Initially people will drive and find that is a no brainer.. so will go up the hill to Sainsbury's where there

are 100's of free parking spaces.

It will become a pop-in last minute place.. like Iceland was..

I think the size will be its downfall. Trying to find what you are looking for when you do not have much time.

I Simply do not know what the planners hope to achieve.

Foxy

[edhistory]

> Is it any bigger than the co-op though?

The Co-Op is 777 square metres.

The Iceland configuration was 420 square metres.

The M&S figure will be available soon.

[Angelina]

I thought it was bigger than co-op as it's extended out.

We'll have to wait and see.

[sela]

Foxy. You can't compare the quality between Sainsbury and M&S.

[titch juicy]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I really believe M&S have got this one wrong...

>

> When you take the car.. you don't want to trudge

> through the back streets ..

> with heavy shopping .. in the rain trying to

> find where you left it..

>

> Initially people will drive and find that is a no

> brainer.. so will go up the hill to Sainsbury's

> where there

> are 100's of free parking spaces.

>

> It will become a pop-in last minute place.. like

> Iceland was..

>

> I think the size will be its downfall. Trying to

> find what you are looking for when you do not have

> much time.

>

> I Simply do not know what the planners hope to

> achieve.

>

> Foxy

I think it can't fail. It has such a captive market. Think of how many houses are within 10 minutes walking distance and think of the demographic of most people living in those houses.

It will be a huge success. If the co-op is busy, which it is, this will be even busier.

I fear a little (only a little as I think there's room for both) for Moxons, William Rose, NCR market, Franklins. But, if it forces prices down a little in those places, then it's a good thing.

[LondonMix]

Angelina Wrote:

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> I thought it was bigger than co-op as it's

> extended out.

>

> We'll have to wait and see.

I don't think its bigger but let's see.

I imagine it will serve the same shopping niche as the co-op plus the convenience food, picnic, lunch food, party food niches as well. I don't know how much trade they need to survive but I can imagine a lot of local workers wanting a salad or whatever for lunch will use it as easy grab and go food. It'll be busiest I reckon in the evenings. Instead of using the London Bridge branch at the station (which is rammed), people will use this one on their way home. On the weekends, people will grab picnic foods and stuff for parties and through out the week, will top up on fruit, veg etc they need during the week outside of their weekly shopping. No one wants to go all the way to Sainsbury in Dog Kennel for just a small top up bag.

As an aside, the big weekly shop is apparently dying out. I was reading an article in the press by Waitrose boss and they are emphasizing their smaller format convenience stores for new openings based on data they've collected. According to their research, 75% of people (including families) at 4pm still don't know what they are having for dinner that night. Most people buy each dinner meal, one meal at a time, on their way home in the evenings. I was surprised the number was so high.

[titch juicy]

sela Wrote:

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> Foxy. You can't compare the quality between

> Sainsbury and M&S.

Yes you can. Sainsburys is generally good quality, particularly the Taste The Difference range, which is quite extensive.

You can't compare size though.

[sela]

titch juicy that's your opinion. I know that Jamie Oliver who works/ed advertising Sainsbury don't shop in Sainsbury.

[LondonMix]

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I fear a little (only a little as I think there's

> room for both) for Moxons, William Rose, NCR

> market, Franklins. But, if it forces prices down a

> little in those places, then it's a good thing.

I think for Moxons, William Rose, NCR market, the Cheeseblock etc, people go there for the experience (it feels nice and quaint) and the quality. They won't switch to M&S as that format is for people who value convenience more than strolling down the high street popping into all their local favorites.

I can say this as a pompous ass who shops at those idie shops and the market weekly. If I ask my partner to get things for me, he always goes to Sainsbury (either the small local one near Crystal Palace Rd or the big one) so he can get everything done in one place as fast as possible. He supports the indies but just can't be bothered if we are busy, which is most of the time, whereas I always use them even though it takes longer.

Franklins I think could suffer though as I'm not sure the quality or selection is that great and the prices are insane.

[Elphinstone's Army]

They will do collect by car? so if you have a trolley full this will be processed and removed to a back door : you can then walk a mile to where you left your car and come back for your shopping. I agree, the driving to M&S and parking will be self correcting. Perhaps a minimum spend delivery service will be offered.

[Louisa]

I have always found Sainsburys to be vastly overrated. It is the same as Asda, Tesco or Morrisons but tries to market itself as a competitor to Waitrose and M&S. If I'm being perfectly honest, Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper and better quality produce than Sainsburys and excel in their smaller format shops because they're easy in and out jobs, no messing around.

I don't dislike M&S, I would shop at M&S over Sainsburys any day of the week. It is better quality and it isn't much more expensive. My problem with M&S Dulwich is the fact they've picked the wrong location IMHO. They should have opted for Peckham Rye station after the redevelopment. A much better punt. Leaving Iceland intact.

Louisa.

[titch juicy]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > I fear a little (only a little as I think

> there's

> > room for both) for Moxons, William Rose, NCR

> > market, Franklins. But, if it forces prices down

> a

> > little in those places, then it's a good thing.

>

>

> I think for Moxons, William Rose, NCR market, the

> Cheeseblock etc, people go there for the

> experience (it feels nice and quaint) and the

> quality. They won't switch to M&S as that format

> is for people who value convenience more than

> strolling down the high street popping into all

> their local favorites.

>

> I can say this as a pompous ass who shops at those

> idie shops and the market weekly. If I ask my

> partner to get things for me, he always goes to

> Sainsbury (either the small local one near Crystal

> Palace Rd or the big one) so he can get everything

> done in one place as fast as possible. He

> supports the indies but just can't be bothered if

> we are busy, which is most of the time, whereas I

> always use them even though it takes longer.

>

> Franklins I think could suffer though as I'm not

> sure the quality or selection is that great and

> the prices are insane.

I use those shops too as there's no half decent meat, fish, cheese alternative within walking distance. Now, the M&S quality won't be quite as good, but much closer than what's currently available. And because of that and the cheaper prices, I will likely use M&S.

I wish the lady that used to sell sushi outside Moxon's would return. That's something I will deffo use M&S for.

[LondonMix]

Yeah, there are probably people on the edge where its only the quality that gets them to the indies despite the inconvenience. Hopefully the overall increase in footfall will offset that. Time will tell. I think they'll be okay though.

The co-op though-- I just don't know how it can survive.

[titch juicy]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah, there are probably people on the edge where

> its only the quality that gets them to the indies

> despite the inconvenience. Hopefully the overall

> increase in footfall will offset that. Time will

> tell. I think they'll be okay though.

>

> The co-op though-- I just don't know how it can

> survive.

I agree about the co-op. I can't see too many mourning it's loss though.

[DulwichFox]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > I fear a little (only a little as I think

> there's

> > room for both) for Moxons, William Rose, NCR

> > market, Franklins. But, if it forces prices down

> a

> > little in those places, then it's a good thing.

>

>

> I think for Moxons, William Rose, NCR market, the

> Cheeseblock etc, people go there for the

> experience (it feels nice and quaint) and the

> quality. They won't switch to M&S as that format

> is for people who value convenience more than

> strolling down the high street popping into all

> their local favorites.

>

> I can say this as a pompous ass who shops at those

> idie shops and the market weekly. If I ask my

> partner to get things for me, he always goes to

> Sainsbury (either the small local one near Crystal

> Palace Rd or the big one) so he can get everything

> done in one place as fast as possible. He

> supports the indies but just can't be bothered if

> we are busy, which is most of the time, whereas I

> always use them even though it takes longer.

>

Franklins I think could suffer though as I'm not sure the quality or selection is that great and the prices are insane.

Agree..

In the past Farmers could not sell misshapen fruit and veg to the big Supermarkets..

They simply would not buy the stuff.

We then get the so called Farmers Shops.. Like Franklins.

The Farmers / Growers would virtually pay these shops to take the misshappen stock away.

..and the so called farmers Shops milked it.. Calling everything 'Organic' because all the veg looked weired.

They charge double the price and people cannot get enough..

Now due to some top chefs and a few T.V promotions, the major supermarket are now selling wobbly carrots and the like cheeply. ..and I'm all for it.

DulwichFox

[titch juicy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have always found Sainsburys to be vastly

> overrated. It is the same as Asda, Tesco or

> Morrisons but tries to market itself as a

> competitor to Waitrose and M&S. If I'm being

> perfectly honest, Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper and

> better quality produce than Sainsburys and excel

> in their smaller format shops because they're easy

> in and out jobs, no messing around.

>

> I don't dislike M&S, I would shop at M&S over

> Sainsburys any day of the week. It is better

> quality and it isn't much more expensive. My

> problem with M&S Dulwich is the fact they've

> picked the wrong location IMHO. They should have

> opted for Peckham Rye station after the

> redevelopment. A much better punt. Leaving Iceland

> intact.

>

> Louisa.

I have used all of the large supermarkets in the area and Sainsburys is by far the better in terms of food quality and overall shopping experience. It's clean, well laid out, usually well-stocked and the staff are unfailingly fantastic. Mainly local youths who rightly or wrongly people have certain expectations of, but are all super friendly, polite, cheerful and knowledgeable. Every member of staff seems to know exactly where every product can be found.

[LondonMix]

I certainly won't mourn. The place is horrid.

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yeah, there are probably people on the edge

> where

> > its only the quality that gets them to the

> indies

> > despite the inconvenience. Hopefully the

> overall

> > increase in footfall will offset that. Time

> will

> > tell. I think they'll be okay though.

> >

> > The co-op though-- I just don't know how it can

> > survive.

>

> I agree about the co-op. I can't see too many

> mourning it's loss though.

[Louisa]

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I have always found Sainsburys to be vastly

> > overrated. It is the same as Asda, Tesco or

> > Morrisons but tries to market itself as a

> > competitor to Waitrose and M&S. If I'm being

> > perfectly honest, Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper

> and

> > better quality produce than Sainsburys and

> excel

> > in their smaller format shops because they're

> easy

> > in and out jobs, no messing around.

> >

> > I don't dislike M&S, I would shop at M&S over

> > Sainsburys any day of the week. It is better

> > quality and it isn't much more expensive. My

> > problem with M&S Dulwich is the fact they've

> > picked the wrong location IMHO. They should

> have

> > opted for Peckham Rye station after the

> > redevelopment. A much better punt. Leaving

> Iceland

> > intact.

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> I have used all of the large supermarkets in the

> area and Sainsburys is by far the better in terms

> of food quality and overall shopping experience.

> It's clean, well laid out, usually well-stocked

> and the staff are unfailingly fantastic. Mainly

> local youths who rightly or wrongly people have

> certain expectations of, but are all super

> friendly, polite, cheerful and knowledgeable.

> Every member of staff seems to know exactly where

> every product can be found.

We all have different experiences and expectations of supermarkets, but personally, I have never found Sainsburys offering to be any different to any of the other major footprint supermarkets on a national level. They certaintly try to market themselves towards a certain clientele, and they've been rather successful at doing that. Also bare in mind the DKH sainsburys is appealing to a relatively affluent clientele, visit one of their other stores and your experience may be slightly different.

Louisa.

[titch juicy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Louisa Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I have always found Sainsburys to be vastly

> > > overrated. It is the same as Asda, Tesco or

> > > Morrisons but tries to market itself as a

> > > competitor to Waitrose and M&S. If I'm being

> > > perfectly honest, Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper

> > and

> > > better quality produce than Sainsburys and

> > excel

> > > in their smaller format shops because they're

> > easy

> > > in and out jobs, no messing around.

> > >

> > > I don't dislike M&S, I would shop at M&S over

> > > Sainsburys any day of the week. It is better

> > > quality and it isn't much more expensive. My

> > > problem with M&S Dulwich is the fact they've

> > > picked the wrong location IMHO. They should

> > have

> > > opted for Peckham Rye station after the

> > > redevelopment. A much better punt. Leaving

> > Iceland

> > > intact.

> > >

> > > Louisa.

> >

> > I have used all of the large supermarkets in

> the

> > area and Sainsburys is by far the better in

> terms

> > of food quality and overall shopping

> experience.

> > It's clean, well laid out, usually well-stocked

> > and the staff are unfailingly fantastic. Mainly

> > local youths who rightly or wrongly people have

> > certain expectations of, but are all super

> > friendly, polite, cheerful and knowledgeable.

> > Every member of staff seems to know exactly

> where

> > every product can be found.

>

>

> We all have different experiences and expectations

> of supermarkets, but personally, I have never

> found Sainsburys offering to be any different to

> any of the other major footprint supermarkets on a

> national level. They certaintly try to market

> themselves towards a certain clientele, and

> they've been rather successful at doing that. Also

> bare in mind the DKH sainsburys is appealing to a

> relatively affluent clientele, visit one of their

> other stores and your experience may be slightly

> different.

>

> Louisa.

Yes, I'm only commenting on the DKH branch. But then only because it's relevant to this local discussion.

[Penguin68]

The 'rules' about competition suggest that when a serious competitor enters a market others in the market will tend to have to 'improve' - in terms of price, quality or innovation (for local stores the latter may well be product range) in order to compete. So the entrance of M&S will raise the bar to others, both those already failing (the Coop) - who may go to the wall, but also those currently perceived to be successful - such as Moxon's. As punters we may thus expect to see better, or cheaper, or a wider range of goods on offer to us (in the market space being addressed by M&S of course) - although there may even be wider uplift on non-competitive stores as well, as customer expectations (particularly in terms of service quality) are raised.

Even for those who choose not to shop in M&S the benefits the store may bring to the 'offer' in LL and environs could be marked, as it impacts other businesses around it.

[Louisa]

As P68 suggests above, the offering will certainly be reconfigured to adjust to a more competitive market locally. As well as this, the likes of Waitrose will be watching closely to monitor the success or otherwise of this new M&S, and will no doubt act accordingly in the coming months and years by bidding on a retail spot (move over co-op perhaps?).

Louisa.

[worldwiser]

I was in the Co-op in Crouch End the other day - the look and feel of that branch is unrecognisable compared to the ED one and a total delight. So the improvements may already be coming unless Co-op feels the people of CE are more deserving than ED.

[LondonMix]

Someone mentioned the Co-Op owns their store. Is this so or is it a more standard lease arrangement? I'm sure some knowledgeable soul on the forum knows. Besides the CO-OP and Foxtons unit I'm not sure there is anywhere else a Waitrose (even a mini one) could go.

[LondonMix]

Ah Crouch End, the ED of the north!

worldwiser Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was in the Co-op in Crouch End the other day -

> the look and feel of that branch is unrecognisable

> compared to the ED one and a total delight. So the

> improvements may already be coming unless Co-op

> feels the people of CE are more deserving than ED.