M&S

[worldwiser]

If anyone knew what it took to provide those products so cheaply they really wouldn't buy them. Either the supplier is screwed or the buyer.

[first mate]

Edh, the total development footprint seems larger than expected and we certainly know it is higher, but that is a subjective view and others, including James Barber, have said that it all seems to fit with the plans submitted and available for scrutiny.

Are you suggesting that the valuation records will show otherwise? You seem pretty clued up so could you elaborate please?

[edhistory]

Here is the current pre-refurb assessment.

The post-refurb assessment should be available soon.

Then we can do a comparison.

Note the 16% discount.

[edhistory]

That attachment didn't work for me.

Here's the plain text:

==============================

Address of property:

84-90, LORDSHIP LANE, LONDON, SE22 8HF

Rating list:

2005 (Current)

With effect from:

01 Apr 2005

A previous appeal has been made against this valuation. View appeal details

Description:

SHOP AND PREMISES

Billing authority:

SOUTHWARK

Billing authority reference:

37840008490008

Special category code:

249 - Shops

Basis of measurement:

NIA

Valuation scheme reference:

9173

Unadjusted ? m2/unit:

?310.00/m2

Valuation

Ref. Floor Description Area m2/unit ? m2/unit Value

1 Ground Retail Zone A 95.90 ?310.00 ?29,729

2 Ground Retail Zone B 170.60 ?155.00 ?26,443

3 Ground Remaining Retail Zone 63.30 ?77.50 ?4,906

4 Ground Mess/Staff Room 45.20 ?38.75 ?1,752

5 Ground Cold Store 22.50 ?46.50 ?1,046

6 Ground Security Room 22.60 ?38.75 ?876

Total area: 420.10 Subtotal: ?64,752

Additional items

Security Room 22.6 ?7.00 ?158

Air Conditioning System 329.8 ?7.00 ?2,309

Spaces Area m2 Value

Car parking: 8 ?2,400

?2,400

Total before adjustments: ?69,619

Adjustments made

Size or quantity allowance -10.0%

Layout -6.0%

Total adjustments: -?10,720

Total value: ?58,899

Rateable value: ? 58,500

[Louisa]

The M&S Foodhall is a slightly different format to the train station forecourt Simply Food. They tend to be bigger, and aimed at a different clientele. Hence my reservations when everyone was trying to say it wouldn't be a destination shop locally. Whether it is or isn't going to be, the fact remains, much like the Beckenham 'Foodhall' format which DOES have a car park, this store will NOT. Let's just hope that everyone uses it in passing to buy a few bits and doesn't choose to make a point of driving to it. If it's going to turn out anything like the Beckenham example, many people drive there to buy bits.

Louisa.

[titch juicy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Camberwell Road is ok, but I prefer the warehouse

> Iceland on OKR near toys r us. Very well stocked,

> and free easy car parking. But it doesn't detract

> from the convenience nature of the former LL

> store. A store most of us walked to, being

> replaced by a destination shop many will DRIVE to,

> which doesn't have parking facilities. Oh well, I

> can't keep moaning it's happening now. Let's see

> the result of this 'convenience' style store.

>

> Louisa.

You'd walk to Iceland on Lordship Lane but not to the Post Office which is 5 metres further?

[Louisa]

I walked to Iceland a few times a month, very rarely drove. The PO I walk to at least 2/3 times a week, that won't be happening now. I can't walk to LL a few times a week it's not practical.

Louisa.

[DulwichFox]

The old Iceland's was popular but never rammed with people... There was a constant trickle..

M&S have expanded the place and it is now vast.. I cannot see the new place surviving on a trickle..

Cannot see it being rammed with people buying Ready Meals... What else will they be selling ?

I believe some Simply M&S are selling clothing. Correct me if i'm wrong.

So is a case of just buying what you can carry.. like the Co-op where there is no parking..

I'm struggling to see how M&S is going to work..

DulwichFox

[Louisa]

Foxy they must have done their homework and realised they could make something of this area, and IMHO they chose here to service the village as well as ED, FH and Peckham overspill. It's a no brainer, no other higher end supermarket close enough to the affluent surrounding neighborhoods and this store will therefore attract people from further out to come and buy here. It will not survive on a trickle of estate agents getting lunchtime meal deals and the odd passing person grabbing a ready meal on the way home. I just don't understand why they couldn't have factored in some sort of underground car parking facilities. The surrounding roads will be chaos.

Louisa.

[sela]

The larger M&S got a bit more than ready meals. I understand some people are busy sometime, but eventhough you can try and cook yourself. There are a few independent food shops, but sometime you want to buy a steak after 6pm and then the butcher isn't there for you and I wouldn't buy ready meal frozen or fresh unless I'm in the office.

[Jenny1]

Picking up on Louisa's point that the new Marks is likely to be a 'destination' store to which many, if not most, customers will drive - I agree. It's too large to function properly in any other way. It must be designed to provide a service for a fairly wide surrounding area. Partly as a supplier of 'high end' groceries, and partly as a pick up point for online sales of other Marks products.

Even if I lived relatively near another M and S shop in South London (Brixton, Lewisham or Walworth Road) I might well chose to travel to the new East Dulwich store to buy food or pick up my clothing order, as Lordship Lane is simply a more relaxed environment in which to shop.

This is likely to cause a parking problem - as Louisa points out.

I guess the upside for the Lane could be increased coincidental custom for other shops.

[TheCat]

With regards to 'Destination M&S' and potential parking problems. I agree there may be something of an increase in car's around, but the fact that there are not any parking facilities will surely mean that people will choose not to drive there, as 'parking is a nightmare'.

Furthermore, I dont think they necessarily need parking to justify the Food Hall format. No one drives to Co-Op, and they will likely take the majority of Co-op's business in my view, plus the extra few people who do actually drive. Although as I said, I cant see this number being too high. If i want M&S, I'd walk, if I need a bigger shop, I'd just ensure I could park easily by going to DKH sainsbury's

[edhistory]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> This is likely to cause a parking problem

There will be no parking problem.

This will have been dealt with by the Traffic Impact Statement in the planning permission documents.

[Jenny1]

I guess time will tell. I'm sure the Traffic Impact Statement will have made a good assessment - but the process can't be infallible.

[LondonMix]

This thread, like the others that proceeded it are hilarious.

There are about 10 M&S stores already in South London within a few miles of Lordship Lane. Many of these are much larger than the one opening in East Dulwich. This is hardly some major destination shop for South London.

This store will attract the same geographical pull that already comes to ED (Dulwich Village, West Dulwich, Forest Hill / Honor Oak, Peckham Rye, Nunhead). People will come in for picnic, lunch food, and convenience food mostly. It will also steal the co-ops business (people popping in for a few things but not a major shop).

Overall, I think it will increase footfall on Lordship Lane (the more reasons people have to come out, the more likely they will). That's why some of the independent business owners came out in support of the M&S opening on the previous thread. Will that increase parking pressure-- maybe a bit but most people won't drive as most people didn't drive to Iceland and don't drive to the Co-Op.

Will this shop be busier than the Iceland and make Lordship Lane busier. Yes, probably. That's the outcome of opening businesses people want to use.

[Louisa]

LM it's going to attract more people as a destination shop, purely because it is sandwiched between affluent and gentrifying areas, all of whom lack a higher end supermarket. They may not come here to get the weekly shop, but they'll certainly come and probably drive if they live somewhere like the village or Bellenden areas as it will tend to be just slightly too far to walk. The transport assessment as jennys points out isn't infallible, and will likely change depending on circumstances. Case study example? There isn't one. This area of inner London lacks many high end stores, which other zone 2 locations have in abundance. We are entering unknown territory.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

Inevitably some people will drive to the new store. Hopefully most will be local and walk, but no point denying the bleeding obvious!

[kford]

What LondonMix said

[ed_pete]

Louisa - surely describing the shop as a convenience store that people will drive to (and struggle to park near) to is a contradiction.

[titch juicy]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This thread, like the others that proceeded it are

> hilarious.

>

> There are about 10 M&S stores already in South

> London within a few miles of Lordship Lane. Many

> of these are much larger than the one opening in

> East Dulwich. This is hardly some major

> destination shop for South London.

>

> This store will attract the same geographical pull

> that already comes to ED (Dulwich Village, West

> Dulwich, Forest Hill / Honor Oak, Peckham Rye,

> Nunhead). People will come in for picnic, lunch

> food, and convenience food mostly. It will also

> steal the co-ops business (people popping in for a

> few things but not a major shop).

>

> Overall, I think it will increase footfall on

> Lordship Lane (the more reasons people have to

> come out, the more likely they will). That's why

> some of the independent business owners came out

> in support of the M&S opening on the previous

> thread. Will that increase parking pressure--

> maybe a bit but most people won't drive as most

> people didn't drive to Iceland and don't drive to

> the Co-Op.

>

> Will this shop be busier than the Iceland and make

> Lordship Lane busier. Yes, probably. That's the

> outcome of opening businesses people want to use.

This.

Lordship Lane is hugely residential. The lane itself and every surrounding street.

There will be an enormous amount of foot traffic.

[first mate]

It's not single factor. You have to look at the impact of this development combined with all the others: the two new schools, the medical centre, the proposed 10 m double yellows everywhere and further proposals to reduce parking spaces on Melbourne. None of these large developments have factored in parking, the assumption has been made that people will walk, train or bus it to all the various venues.

The street outside M&S was chaos this morning, as one of their delivery vans tried to access the entrance.

[Louisa]

And there in lies the problem ed_pete. M&S previously had main stores, which contained foodhalls inside them, which was presumably more a destination shopping centre event. And simply food, which was convenience orientated and usually put inside busy footfall locations such as train stations and or near something like a tube station or bus stop. This new high street food specific 'Foodhall' brand is neither here nor there. It gives the impression of being convenience orientated, but tends to be located on a high street a fair distance from any busy transport hubs. It therefore kind of can become a destination shop if the perfect storm exists. I would argue, as others have done, that unlike Beckenham for example, we do not have parking facilities nor do we have a high end alternative nearby (Beckenham has Waitrose). I therefore think we are likely to attract higher footfall, with this store.

Louisa.

[worldwiser]

It occurs to me that the parking issue, if indeed it is one, will be self-correcting. Any initial increase in road traffic will be quickly displaced onto public transport, foot or other branches when people learn they'll be circling for 15 minutes or more in a fruitless search for a space. M&S might be a bit of an attraction but not to that extent.

Or what LondonMix said.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Louisa, I do agree, it's not been thought out in terms of practicality - it seems they were more interested in maximising financial return (hence removal of the cark park).

As a massive food store, it's akin to opening a Sainsbury's and not allowing for any parking.

A convenience store implies you're just picking up one or two items and can hoof it without a car.

A huge shop implies a weekly shop and I'll be darned if I'm carrying anything myself on that scale.

I'd probably pop into the carwash and go shopping then.

[titch juicy]

But it's not a massive food store. It'll be similar in size to the co-op and that doesn't need parking.

People are talking about it like it's a big supermarket.