(homeless) Turf war outside Coop

[monica]

I was by the COOP on Friday, and I witnessed a situation between one of the the homeless guys who normally begs for money outside the COOP and a lady with her accordion. We were enjoying the delights of the accordion music when a friend of the beggar came along and told her to move on, he then escorted her down the road and made sure she was not going to set up elsewhere on the lane, then gave the beggar a thumbs up to carry on begging. WTF is happening on Lordship lane, to add further insult I heard the beggar's friend say that he was going to rob the woman of her well earned buskers money.B*****d

[JoeLeg]

I know this sounds weird, but was either of the beggars a thin, wiry guy, late 30's (probably looks older), glasses, flat cap, moustache and thin beard?

[alice]

do you mean the big issue seller

[JoeLeg]

No, the guy I'm thinking of isn't a seller.

[DulwichFox]

The people outside the Co-op seem to be a small group of well organized 'Beggars' who operate a strict shift system.

They change over at set times. This used to happen outside Seven-11 some time back (1990's) 2 hour shifts.

One of the guys.. a pleasant friendly black fellow would come into the Palmy and tip 20 pounds in change on the bar

asking for notes.. ?10 an hour back in the 90's.. not bad. Perhaps people were more generous back then..

The Threepenny Novel

A character named Peachum maintains a syndicate of street beggars whom he ruthlessly exploits..........

Try sitting on that spot and see how long you last ..

DulwichFox

[JoeLeg]

The guy I'm thinking of would certainly join an 'organised' begging group, but I'd be surprised if he condoned the behaviour described by Monica.

I guess I'm hoping it's not him - he's fallen far enough recently, but always had a fairly strong moral code. But then people do bad things under terrible conditions.

[monica]

Hi Joeleg

No the beggar in question wears a baseball cap, thin, blonde and no moustache. His friend who acted as his "bodyguard" is a tall stocky fella with short grey hair, always by the coop, looks like an extra from a guy ritchie movie, very dodgy.

[JoeLeg]

Ah, cool. Well, not cool or good in any way, given what they were talking about doing. But I'm glad to know it wasn't the guy I'm thinking of. I've seen him there a couple of times, just hope he can turn himself around again.

[Chief]

The stocky beggar with short grey hair, always by the Coop, is clearly a con man! Don't give him any money.

[JohnL]

My personal one (always outside Tesco in Rye Lane and swears only

I give him anything worth having) has gone.

[Penguin68]

There are very good reasons why many people discourage supporting street begging through donations - not only can these 'beggars' at times be anything but legitimate - but very frequently monies given are then used for purposes which do not benefit the long term health and well being of the beggar - there are numbers of recognised (and very good) charities which address the needs of the homeless and those unable to look after themselves properly - giving money through them both ensures that genuinely needy people get the benefit, but also ensures that the money is 'well' spent in terms of what it buys, including focused help and training to move people off the streets. [big Issue sellers (those with proper ID) I place as part of a proper charitable activity]. I would also except from these strictures buskers - these are people who are offering entertainment in exchange for payment - at least the 'transaction' is more clear, they are looking for a reward for skill, not for just being there.

This very unpleasant begging scam (The link to the Threepenny Opera is very relevant) could be readily stopped if people stopped street giving to beggars. There are far more effective (and tax efficient) ways to be charitable to those in need.

[DulwichFox]

It was actually the Threepenny Novel... and not the Threepenny Opera ..

Easy to get the two confused..

In The Threepenny Novel Street Beggars are exploited buy their 'owners' and fight for top spots..

A bit of Dickensian Faginism 'my dear' in there somewhere..

DulwichFox

[Penguin68]

The Threepenny Novel is the novelization of Bertold Brecht's Threepenny Opera. The plot is the same with Peachum (inter alia) running gangs of beggars who have to pay him for their pitch. Both are based on the English eighteenth century Beggars Opera (libretto John Gay).

[monica]

I have spoken to the relevant authorities and they have said they are aware of it and it is in the process of being dealt with.

I understand it is hard when people are forced to beg because they have no money, food or anywhere to live. However I do not agree with organised street begging, especially when there is a conman involved.

Hopefully we wil see the end to this particular three Penny Opera/novel.

[nxjen]

The lady playing the accordion is now outside the new M&S which will probably be a better site for her than outside the Coop. Really nice to hear the music.

[alice]

she was outside jade

[monica]

It is lovely, brings a touch of the med to Lordship lane.

[jaywalker]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> There are very good reasons why many people

> discourage supporting street begging through

> donations - not only can these 'beggars' at times

> be anything but legitimate - but very frequently

> monies given are then used for purposes which do

> not benefit the long term health and well being of

> the beggar - there are numbers of recognised (and

> very good) charities which address the needs of

> the homeless and those unable to look after

> themselves properly - giving money through them

> both ensures that genuinely needy people get the

> benefit, but also ensures that the money is 'well'

> spent in terms of what it buys, including focused

> help and training to move people off the streets.

> . I would also except from these strictures

> buskers - these are people who are offering

> entertainment in exchange for payment - at least

> the 'transaction' is more clear, they are looking

> for a reward for skill, not for just being there.

>

> This very unpleasant begging scam (The link to the

> Threepenny Opera is very relevant) could be

> readily stopped if people stopped street giving to

> beggars. There are far more effective (and tax

> efficient) ways to be charitable to those in need.

There are also good reasons for supporting people who ask for money in the streets. Many get precious little support from our beloved welfare system (how exactly is it that people are not guaranteed a minimum income - even if not working - and basic housing in the fifth wealthiest economy in the world?).

I simply do not understand your moralising that "very frequently monies given are then used for purposes which do not benefit the long term health and well being of the beggar". When I give money to someone who asks for it (not nearly enough times but they don't yet take plastic) I hope that they will have as much fun with it as they can. They are not children for goodness sake.

The real evil of organised gangs is that it cuts off those who do need to ask for money from those willing to give it.

For a while I will be diverting my conscience money to the excellent busker (who should certainly be sponsored by local retailers to continue).

[tasha1]

I tend not to give money to people on the street but instead (especially if they are outside a grocery shop), I offer to buy them a sandwich and a tea or coffee. I don't do this as often as I would like because it's expensive. Mostly, people are really appreciative when I return with their food and drink. Sometimes, I'm told to f....off at my suggestion. Quite likely, this is when people want money for alcohol or drugs which is up to them how they use the money if I were to give cash. I do understand the need for people to fed their habits, especially when they use these to self medicate and are addicted but having spent many years working in this field, it doesn't sit comfortably with me personally.

[JohnL]

When ours used to sit outside for hours I often thought

how if you wanted to spy on someone you'd just pay a beggar.

He'd know when I (and others no doubt) was likely to come in

and go out.

[uncleglen]

In 1993 I gave a beggar on the iron stairs at London Bridge 50p at 8am. I came back that way at 4pm and he had a quart of cider...I have never given any beggar any money since.

[lavender27]

I was stopped outside the coop once and a young man asked me which bus to get to Waterloo, so I told him to get on a 176 at which he said 'could I have the bus fare, please' ha at least he said please, I didnt give him the bus fare as had no change. Yes, this was a new scam on me to get money out of people. I literally thought he just wanted the directions.

Another time a man stopped me and told me a sob story about his Aunt who was ill in Bromley and he had no way of getting there and needed ?4.00 to get a travel card, I fell for that one, as he sounded so convincing. The next week he tried the same thing on me again, obviously he didn't recognise me. I told him in no uncertain terms to rack off.

Another time I gave a beggar a bag of apples, he smiled from ear to ear.

Sometimes you just don't know who is genuine.

ps sorry for spelling mistakes if there are any, I wouldn't know as I don't know how to spell. ha ha ha

[Blah Blah]

I buy food for people begging all the time, and have never regretted doing so.

[Loz]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> In 1993 I gave a beggar on the iron stairs at London Bridge 50p at 8am. I came back that way at

> 4pm and he had a quart of cider...I have never given any beggar any money since.

I once saw a beggar in the tunnel near Vauxhall station. My first thought was that if I gave him any money, he'd probably spend it on booze. Then I considered the fact that, if I kept it, I would probably spend that quid on alcohol too.

On the logic that he probably needed a drink more than I did, he got the quid.

[Pickle]

I was asked for money by a guy outside the Co-Op last week, and offered to buy him some food. He was really appreciative, chatted for a little while afterwards and he seemed genuinely grateful that I'd taken the time to even speak to him, let alone buy him food.

I don't like giving money to beggars, but figure if they are genuinely in need they will be grateful for a meal. Whether it be through addiction or some other reason, to end up sitting begging on a dirty pavement is an awful place to end up.