How not to f*** them up - Oliver James - anyone read it?

[Moos]

Just wiki'd him - has a wife and 2 small children. No doubt Mrs. James is not allowed to work, and will be blamed for any faults the Jameslings will acquire over time.

[fairylamb]

This guy hates capitalism yet looking at his bibliography he seems to have an uncanny knack at being able to churn out a pap psychology book with a slick title on the current topic of the moment in next to no time!

[jalapeno]

Mrs James is a Stepford housewife.

[Smiler]

As alternative reading would really recommend the Stepford Wives!

[jalapeno]

The flip side...:))

[180176]

good thread; havent read the book on principle because his guardian column f**** me off so much. my kids go to nursery 3 days a week ergo i am a sub-standard mother and my kids are destined to grow up with a myriad of insecurities...occasionally he provides some substantive evidence for what he is saying but he always insists on couching it all in 'im not trying to make anyone feel guilty' - in which case, don't write the f***ing article in the first place. We're all just doing our best. i guess im not sure i see the point of the column other than to promote his book.

[Fuschia]

I have a slightly different view which is that I don't take his comments personally but I find his pointers to research into various aspects of pyschology are quite interesting and it often prompts me to go off and look up the various original documents and other related thinking.

I find that at least there is some science there underlying his writing (though no doubt there is science to support an alternative view)

I reserve my spleen for those parts of the parenting "industry" which peddle the "10 steps to sleeping through" and all the other crap which sells the parenting mags, for those who make a career from advising parents on weaning, sleep etc when they have no qualifications, often no experience and not many hard facts to back it up...

I can read something that says (as an example) that nursery care for under 3s, especially boys, isn't optimal, without breaking out in a guilty sweat that my twins attend creche 2h per day. I don't think it would really be optimal if I was a stressed out emotional wreck and my house was demolished by toddler twins, either!

But I did read a lot of staff about small children and childcare (and speak to DS1's godmother who was a primary headteacher at the time) before deciding to go with a minder rather than a nursery for DS1. I wouldn't criticise someone who chose an alternative route.. and god knows we were lucky to find a good minder... but that doesn't negate the fact that there is quite a lot written about early childcare (Penelope Leach for eg) that indicates a nursery isn't necessarily the best choice, from the child's point of view...

Shoot the message not the messenger, or whatever the saying is.

PS I agree he comes across as an opinionated twat. But Others I set greater store by - Margot Sunderland, Penelope Leach, say many of the same things.

[woofmarkthedog]

Yes...

I have read him/ that book & as you probably know the title is from Philip Larkins "This be the verse" read that & tell me it's not true

( or you're still living in "the bubble" of self-delusion )

I think many people find it hard to look at their own childhoods objectively , to actually say "you know what in hindsight my mother/father were "off" the mark here or this was plain wrong " without feeling that it is a betrayal of some kind. That in it's self is both challenging & reflective

I have also given the book to a few people & personally I don't think it diminishes women, yes it might challenge some of modern concepts of "yes, you can have it all" ( we can't )

I also feel the section on the benign/coercive discipline relationship between parent & child fascinating, once read you do see it played out everywhere. In short it's an eye opener but only if you're willing to absorb other ideas on child rearing, if not well we can always default to the "Mother/Father knows best" myth

Lastly, the exercise that challenges the roles we play in the family theatre are quite powerful when applied , quite literally life changing for some

Ultimately people will cherry pick any points in a book to suit, but as a whole it's a good book I think

W**F

[LeilahB]

I also quite like OJ and his column in the Guardian, and I read the section on childcare in Affluenza with equal amounts of interest and guilt when deciding how/when to go back to work and what to do re childcare - ultimately, I think it's good to have people putting forward alternative views from what seems to be the perceived wisdom of the moment.

[littleEDfamily]

Toxic Childhood, by Sue Palmer, has some of the same themes as OJs book, but what I liked about hers (although I didn't like everything) is that it's far more practical and focuses on forces other than the role of mother in terms of shaping children (she too is less than positive about nurseries for small children and advocates parents being genuinely open minded about alternatives that enable ideally mother or father to be the primary carer in the early years).

Having had a couple of days to mull over what I have read in 'How not to....', I think the aspect of the book that sits least comfortably with me is the fact he places a very very, unnecessarily heavy burden on mothers to avoid the emotional ruining of children (which he leads you to believe is happening willy nilly), and that no matter what kind of mother you may be (ie Organiser/ Hugger/ Fleximum) you're still somehow flawed, misguided (often delusional) AND in need of (his) therapy!!!

Fuschia, I do understand your frustration with the 'How to train your child' school of thought and literature, despite the fact that I have picked up some useful tips from its 'gurus', but there is something slightly, dare I say it, sinister about OJ - maybe it's just his style.... or maybe I just can't get past that bad shirt he was wearing on the Wright Stuff and fact he seemed quite weasely and angry.

[gwod]

I think that in ideal circumstances, we would all be calm, nuturing, wealthy, vegetable growing, stay at home, earth mothers, but it is not possible to be all these things, and indeed, some are mutually exclusive. It feels as though James is setting mothers up to beleive they have failed if some of these objectives are not acheieved.

It seems that a great deal of these parenting books seem to lay out the writer's own parenting choices as "The Way" ( OJ beleives in SAHMs or a if you are desparate, a Nanny which is what he is doing....G Ford as a Nursery Nurse beleives routine is king...which I'm sure was essensial in her experiences in the nursery environment....Penelope Leach, all for co-sleeping, and having the baby attached to you - definately seems to have worked for her)....Seems to me like lots of methods work, picked through a mixture of choice and necessity - fads and trends come and go, let's not beat ourselves up....Mothers Unite!

[jalapeno]

TBH, his books and articles can only create a division amongst women and this seems to be the sole purpose behind most of his literature, I find.

Every woman has a prerogative to work or not to, depending on their personal circumstances. They may have various reasons for doing so and shouldn't feel compelled to justify their personal choices or be the point of callous criticism by some self deluded opinionated man who uses guilt, scaremongering and stereotyping of women as techniques to make his books salable. Yes, there are many other authors of this nature as you have pointed out Fuschia.

Controversy is attention grabbing - nothing new

Nearly 70% of women with children are employed in the UK - this clearly doesn't mean that two thirds of our child population are " F***** up", does it? where is the scientific data to consolidate this evidence?

I understand he may have a point concerning parenting of a career women who might not be able to devote the same level of care and affection to their offspring, opposed to those who assume a very domestic role in order to do so but to suggest offspring of the former may suffer from mental crisis / behavioral disorders of some such sort or lack self motivation due to parent choosing employment is truly abysmal. Imposing such a theory as a valid observance of the vast majority of working mothers is VERY wrong - a bad approach and a common misconception.

[woofmarkthedog]

>Controversy is attention grabbing - nothing new<

Yes, what a nice controversial attention grabbing sound bite jalapeno

( hats off, round of applause )

Q. Have you actually read any of his books though ?

W**F

Bibliograph for his book

[jalapeno]

Yes, I have and despise the guilt induce tone he adopts throughout the book, it's not fair. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Thanks.

[littleEDfamily]

Since I started this thread and therefore feel a heightened sense of ownership of it, I am (nervously)appointing myself as referee.

Can we please stick to either dissing OJ, standing up for him or some balanced, constructive position in between rather than getting all snarky and sarcastic with each other, WMTD?

[SteveT]

The relatives I remember who seemed to screw-up their offspring more than anyone else, were the aunts who never doubted that they were right.

The rest of the family often had their doubts and would ask sisters, cousins, aunts etc their opinion on the matter causing concern, and their offspring seemed to be like the rest of us, only partially screwed-up.

[Saila]

conclusion:

if you're worried you're doing things wrong, you probably are

and if you're one of the lucky few who feels confident in their approach to parenting, you're doing it wrong too

*shoots self*

[Fuschia]

nah, do 70% of what you're happy with and don't feel too bad about the rest

[woofmarkthedog]

>Can we please stick to either dissing OJ, standing up for him or some balanced, constructive position in between rather than getting all snarky and sarcastic with each other, WMTD?<

Yes....

I'll try my best but can we also bin the glib & needless broadside comments too

I also believe that I have stood up for him ( or at least his work )

W**F

[amydown]

Having read this thread, I am now intrigued and want to read this book. Does anyone want to sell theirs if finished with it?

[woofmarkthedog]

amydown Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having read this thread, I am now intrigued and

> want to read this book. Does anyone want to sell

> theirs if finished with it?

----------------------------------

(tu)

I'll buy a spare if there's any going

( given the critical rinsing, I'm sure there'll be a few going )

W**F

[AdaDoom]

Interesting follow up to the Women's Hour interview here.

[reren]

Oooh - the fact that he's complained about the interview just sums him up. Very happy to dish out criticism and completely unable to cope when under fire himself. I don't see what he could possibly complain to the BBC Trust about except when Jenni Murray asks him specifically how much time he's spent alone with 18 month olds. Completely fair question and one he gives a pretty vague answer to - what does a 'period of weeks' mean? Surely one could stick out practically any child-rearing approach for a few weeks!

[littleEDfamily]

You can borrow mine!!! I'll PM you!

amydown Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having read this thread, I am now intrigued and

> want to read this book. Does anyone want to sell

> theirs if finished with it?

[amydown]

Would love to borrow it!