Television research into parking problems

[Jeremy]

Agree that driving in London is not a necessity (for most of us), but I personally wouldn't be without a car in ED. It saves me several hours a week.

If you make do just fine without a car then that's great, but don't assume that the same is convenient for others.

[mockney piers]

There's a big difference between something being convenient and not having a choice.

I'm not here to criticise others' choices, I merely served to debunk the suggestion that it was an imperative rather than an option.

[Alan Dale]

'merely served to debunk the suggestion that it was an imperative' - you slated me for my magniloquent prose you hypocrite.

You are absolutely right about optional car use though.

[Jeremy]

Fair enough mockney.

[Loz]

I don't think the researcher is after is a wider debate on if cars are Bad Things or not. I think we're missing the point here. If I park in a dodgy place (yellow lines, etc) and I get a ticket, then fair enough. However there's two other issues. 1) There is so much evidence of wardens issuing plainly invalid tickets and 2) are councils running parking schemes to keep things clear or to raise money?

I'd love to see someone take a traffic warden that has issued a obviously dodgy ticket to court on a charge of fraud. It'd be an interesting case. Or, as I've said before, if you sucessfully appeal a ticket then the council pays you costs equal to the value of the ticket.

At the moment there is no disincentive to write a dodgy ticket.

[Asset]

I would say that the cost of using taxis and public transport over a year would be less than the cost of owning a car in London.

statistics please?

[monica]

I actually had a charge of criminal intent brought against a traffic wardens years ago.When i had a business in peckham,one day a traffic warden came in for lunch sat down,ordered his food,then a another customer pulled up outside came in and ordered a take away,in the meantime the warden went out and issued a ticket whilst his food was getting cold,i told the customer who then quickly went off with no ticket on his windscreen(another debate)circled round and picked his food up from my waiting hands out by the road.The tarffic warden took his lunch and threw it at me,told me that the ticket had gone through,regardless of it being on the windscreen.I looked at the lunch on the floor and called the police.He was arrested,charged and suspended from his job,all for ?40.00 and no he did not even pay for the food...

[Brendan]

How can a system where private companies are given financial incentive to fine the public possibly be fair?

I?m going to need a long long wall come the revolution.

[irata]

It is definitely true that unfair car use - blocking shops, parking in bus lanes, etc - has a much more significant detrimental effect on the borough than unfair ticketing.

I very strongly disagree. This not some sort of drivers vs pedestrians issue. After all drivers are also pedestrians. Parking Enforcement is a political issue, a style of governance that gives Private Contractors the right to accuse and penalise citizens without testing that the accusation is correct (it is simply assumed that the accuser is right) and you are liable as charged until YOU prove that they are wrong!

Car use is either legal (i.e. permitted in law) or not. Parking Enforcement is necessary (because some simply do not play by the rules) and it is either legal and proper or it is not. Of course the government set the tone with the relevant laws passed in parliament and council employee's are charged to implement and enforce. So this is not an issue of fairness. It is an issue of lawful or not. For starters enforcers do NOT have discretion. They must follow a strict set of rules. And let us not forget that the vast majority of drivers are law abiding, careful and polite.

But now and then we all make a mistake. Does this mean we should be harshly treated every time? If so, then what about all those pedestrians that cross the road when the lights are red; and the cyclists that blatendly go though red lights; not forgetting those adults and teenagers riding their bikes on pavements; and cyclists riding at night without lights; and pedestrians blindly walking into the traffic to cross the road... We have not even talked about those that litter...

I am sure you would agree that there is a fantastic scope to generate new "Enforcement Businesses".

I have observed traffic wardens many times getting ready to pounce in Lordship Lane just before 4pm when the bus lane restriction came into force. I just wonder how many shopper got caught. Do you mind the minutes when you are shopping?

Anyway, this senseless restriction has been lifted thanks to the campaigning of the Lordship lane traders.

That is why we talk about overzealous enforcement. The main problem, IMHO, is the fact that Councils do not use their own staff for the enforcement of parking restrictions preferring to leave this task to contractors. And that is where things break down. After all these contractors are only interested in issueing more and more ticket's which is the only product they are selling. They are profit making plc's. They are not interested in community issues. Their primary interest is to keep their shareholders happy. Fair enough.

So, this is where the problem lies. As soon as the enforcement of the law becomes a medium to make profit the very system of democracy brakes down. If we cannot trust the enforcers then trust into local and central government starts to brakes down, too. This very process is happening now. Add to the profit motive poorly trained traffic wardens on low wages and you have a perfect recipe to seriously upset a lot of generally law abiding tax paying citizens.

As a result of this overzealous, for profit, enforcement I am now appealing against EVERY ticket I receive (successfully to date). Mind you, I do not set out to get parking tickets. I respect the law and pay my taxes, too. However, the more time I spend finding out about Parking Enforcement and related issues the more shocked I am about how cavalier this government is with peoples rights.

Parking enforcement this is not an issue of disgruntled drivers. The lack of parking and it's enforcement is a serious community issue, questioning how we want to live together sharing an incresingly scarce resource and of good or in this case bad governance. Enforcement for profit destroys democratic values.

[Brendan]

Like what he/she said!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Irata's post was good, detailed and considered. And much of it I agree with. As ever, I feel compelled to reiterate that I believe the system is unfair and does go too far

And yet...

The "mistake" word was used. And while I'm absolutely certain that this is true (we all make mistakes) I can 100%, no questions asked, on the bible, on the grave of whoever, etc etc guarantee that one of the reasons councils have a zero tolerance policy is not because of mistakes

Drivers (of which I am one, but not in London) have to start being honest and admitting that, as a group, mistakes happen far less than "taking a chance" does. And because so many people take a chance, ignoring those around them (people who rely on bus lanes, cycle lanes, crossing the road without getting run over, other drivers etc) drivers have become, frankly, a menace.

I will take the pepsi challenge with anyone - stand with me at 7:15 am at the bus stop and just watch the number of drivers who park in the bus bay just to get some cash out, blocking both traffic and buses while they can't be arsed to park around the corner legally. Or witness the number of drivers on their phones/doing their slap oblivious to the cyclist they almost crush

I'm not saying anyone posting behaves like this at all - it's just that so many people do that zero tolerance has been adopted and I can't see anything else happening until people start to use their cars less...

Am I alone in thinking this? Am I wrong?? I'm not saying that someone who makes a mistake deserves to have a car impounded, pay a 3 figure fine and have to travel to some scary pound - I'm just trying to say that while, yes, councils are gaining financially it isn't enough to blame everything on that reason.

[*Bob*]

Why is this so difficult for motorists to grasp?

If you drive considerately within the speed limit, park legally and don't drive in bus lanes then the chances of getting a ticket are very slim indeed. There may be a handful of 'sensational' exceptions and I'm sure they'll make a perfectly missable bit of weekday tv filler on the goggle-box.

The number of times I've been sat on a bus, stuck in a line of traffic because some tit has popped his hazards on in order to perform an essential task such as nipping into Thresher. So what if the wardens are 'ready to pounce' at 4pm? Does the sign say "Bus Lane after 4pm.. but we'll give you another ten minutes if you like - take your time"?

No-one likes to get a fine. I've had a few, but y'know.. it wasn't down to destruction of democratic values. It was more because I was going too fast, my parking ticket ran out and I was in a bus lane.

[Mark]

I agree with *bob*. Sit outside the Bishop for half an hour and just see how many people stop outside the newsagent opposite just to get a packet of fags, or pop in the deli to get a slice of parma, or go see the Nissans and vans stopped on Grove Vale, all oblivious to the fact they're being a right pain in the arse to others.

As Jacques 'Jacques' Liverot said "When I drive my car, I am not driving. I am participating in a conspiracy called 'traffic'"

[Brendan]

I think the angle of this TV guy/girl is the unfair issuing of tickets, and the bulling tactics of these private extortion rackets and the local councils to force people to pay without due opportunity to appeal.

This does happen. A lot.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Brendan - we are not disagreeing with your basic point. It's happened to people on here and to real (pardon the expression) friends as well. Sometimes the authorities have behaved inexcusably

But what we are trying to do is to expand on the reasons why things have reached the point they have. A program that says "councils are over-zealous in issuing tickets and innocent people are sometimes caught up in it" is undeniably based on a truth but it doesn't begin to address the bigger picture, and will therefore not change anything

[Goose]

. . . and back to the original question about unfair ticketing!

There is an area at the end of East Dulwich Road near the roundabout, the part of the road behind Goose Green. Parking is allowed on the pavement along the road on the side of the houses as it is narrow. This ends with a box painted on the pavement that is almost invisible. The yellow line does not start for two car lengths and so cars are always parking on the pavement in that area before the yellow line. Wardens on scooters come to this spot deliberately several times a day, seemingly at any time of day or night and ticket these cars for having their wheels on the pavement. There are no signs whatsoever. I'm sure a lot of people appeal and get off, but as the post above said, i wouldn't be surprised if some people pay with the threat of increased fines and court.

I think that is what the researcher is after, not moral issues about parking in bus lanes...on that note, I parked on Lordship Lane opposite cafe nero at 0715 to get a coffee (please don't start on the morals of that either). In the 2 minutes I was in there, a scooter pulled up and ticketed me. Technically of course he was right and so i paid up but very irritating - that cup of coffee cost me ?52!

[Alan Dale]

Irata's post is a non sequitur.

Whilst she does put forward a strong argument for why private companies shouldn't be incentivised to fine car users she does not address the relative significance of other unfair car use and therefore does not explain why she strongly disagrees with the quote from my post.

I do not dispute the fact that a small number of people have been given tickets incorrectly but I think there are more important transport issues which the BBC should look to expose and solve.

I have had a few parking and speeding tickets over the years. They were all entirely my fault. No headline grabbing documentary there I'm afraid.

[Mark]

Just remembered I signed up to Ticket busters a while a go (www.ticketbusters.co.uk). It's ?9.99 and it gives you access to a website that tells you the rules and regulations for parking and what constitutes grounds for appeal. Goose, in your case something like this could be helpful:

"if the single yellow line is barely visible or badly broken, you have good grounds for appeal. Please also note that single yellow lines must end with a bar at right angles to the line (unless it adjoins a double yellow line or parking bay etc). If this is missing, you could have a very strong case for an appeal."

I used information on it to successfully appeal a ticket, I drove off before the ticket was handed to me or placed on the car, the "it's too late I've started writing the ticket" line that traffic wardens give is rubbish.

Just re-read that and it sounds like I'm connected to them, I'm not, I have just benefited from the site before.

[daisy]

I have lost count of the number of times i have seen traffic wardens buzzing around East Dulwich on their scooters with prewritten tickets desperate to find a car that fits the crime. They drive around like mosquitos jump off their bikes - which more often than not they then park illegally - before putting their prewritten tickets on a car. The latest money maker was people parking adjacent to dropped curbs which many motorist don't/didn't realise is an offence. Indeed until six months ago it was an offence that was only enforcable by the council and not APCOA. That changed a few months ago and wardens have been having a field day since. So many people complained and contested the huge number of tickets that were issued in East Dulwich in the month of June regarding dropped curbs that the council wisely decided to have a moritorium on these tickets until warning white lines were painted on the roads. Outsourcing traffic management to private companies has been one of the worst local political decisions of the last 10 years. Next time you see a warden on a bike or in a car try asking them whether the vehicles are provided by APCOA. Ask who is responsible for them being taxed and roadworthy. Ask whether they are covered by public liability insurance. You won't get an answer from them. You won't get an answer from APCOA either. Its about time their scandalous behaviour was rumbled. I would guess about half the tickets they issue are illegally issued which is akin to mugging someone for ?80.00. If anyone seriously thinks that traffic wardens are there to serve the community they really do not have the slightest understanding of what these private companies are up to.

[Nero]

Let's get the facts straight. If you break the law and are caught, then you pay the price. The fact that the authorities are sometimes very adept at catching the law breakers, for example, by employing people to look out for violators, is irrelevant. I agree with Sean. A mistake is very different from taking a chance, and I have no sympathy for anyone who is ticketed for breaking the law, unless the rules are not posted clearly. But I do agree that sometimes the laws are unfair and badly applied. Nero

[kford]

Unfair ticketing is rife. I've suffered (and successfully appealed) so-called 'ghost' tickets, whereby the parking attendent writes the ticket but does not issue it to the windscreen; a PCN, even though I've had a valid parking permit; a PCN for not having the year on a scratchcard permit visible because the card slipped down the window; a PCN issued while moving(!) in Westminster; a PCN on my motorbike while parked on private land; a PCN while in a bay with the sign obscured by ivy. And it's not always to do with the perceived anti-car policies of local councils - I've seen blue badge disabled vehicles and free-parking G-Wizz electric cars with PCNs on the windscreen for no obvious reason.

'Parking Solutions' is big business now. To abandon quotas and all the other scams local councils employ to pull in fines would leave a big financial hole in their accounts. And you don't have to be Littlejohn or Clarkson to suffer from this policy.

[Mark]

Here's a way to make money: Let traffic wardens walk up and down queues of traffic and give fines people for driving whilst holding their phone to their ear. Easy money. "But they're stationary, their not hurting anyone" I hear some of you say but as a bike rider I can tell you it's when they pull off with one hand on their phone and the other hand doing both the gear stick and the steering wheel that they're not in control. Especially if they're writing things down as well. You could probably get some more money off them for not wearing a seat belt too.

Sorry, gone off topic (had a close call with a prat doing the above yesterday). Perhaps the government could create and then privatise Driving Whilst on the Phone Attendants, who knows they might be liked, unlike the apparently over-zealous parking attendants round here.

[argibargy]

I chanced parking one night on a little side street in Peckham a few years back, and got a ticket at 1:45AM. I should not have of course, but it still left me in no doubt as to the spirit under which Southwark are, or certainly were, operating. It just seems soooo wrong to me that it is worth someones while to hide in the shadows of dark, nasty little streets all night.

[Loz]

That may make things safer, Mark. But at the same time can the hand out tickets to motorbikes who jam themselves in to the front of the waiting queue, usually diagonally across the front of your car, crossing the white line and so effectively going through the red light? And/or sit in the green bicycle-only area?

[snorky]

Unfair tickets ?

Apart from the small % that are overturned due to some legal technicality ( wrong date/ wrong registration etc ), most tix are legal.

This isnt a grey area - you are either in the right or in the wrong - if you get a ticket and its not overturned, then you are in the wrong - its not dificult is it ? If you are not capable of assimilating the information required to operate a car on the road and observe published rules and associated displayed parking regulations, then you should not be driving

So what if wardens buzz around and "sneakily" stick a ticket on your car ? the fact is, if you hadnt parked there, you would not have been ticketed - even if it was on "for a minute"

Dropepd kerbs - if you are ignorant enough to block a dropped kerb, then you get what you deserve.

I write this as a 2 car household, one of which is a biggie - We sometimes get tickets by mistake, but accept it as adults - I did dispute the Lidl bollocks I admit, but that was a matter of principle, not economics.