Bloody Sunday.....Official Inquiry to be published 15 June

[Santerme]

OliviaDee Wrote:

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> >

> > 'To really see the level of callousness deeply

> > embedded in the Irish psyche from it's early

> days'

>

> is that really what you meant to say Santerme?

>

> i liked reading your post. i don't think i've ever

> heard a soldier's personal POV before.

> >

> >

No, that was too general and insensitive....

Ballyseedy is an extreme example of Irish on Irish violence, not through the religious divide, but political difference.

My point was to illustrate the depth of depravity and disregard for human life that has existed historically....and this manifested itself in the time contemporary to my service in ways which were only different in method of execution.

Our mantra and PIRA's was always to an extent, if you are going to play big boys games, expect big boys rules to come into effect.

There were few saints on either side and a basketful of sinners.

Widdgery was a mistake...but it has to be remembered that PIRA 'persuaded' people not to testify, whilst the soldiers were compelled to by their CoC....so there was never going to be balance and the net effect was predictable to anyone with a functioning cerebral cortex!

The actual TRUTH NOW as I see it is

The social and political inequalities of the 1960s have been largely addressed.

The fuel that gave moral legitimacy to and fuelled bigotry has had the tap turned off.

Much of the poverty along with the slums in which people lived are gone

The standard of living of the average person is far higher than it was in 1969 and the Province has a higher standard of educational and academic achievement than that which exists in England and Wales.

People who are educated, housed, employed and fed are less inclined to be manipulated by so-called 'leaders' than those who are not.

Ordinary people have a future to look forward to.

A generation not born before or during the 'troubles' are less inclined to follow the bigotry of their parents and within a few decades will outnumber them and consign them to irrelevance.

The Long war is OVER, it exists now largely in the hearts of those who, within a few decades will be dead taking their bigotry and hatred to the grave and to history where it belongs.

The war will continue to be fought by the middle aged Buffers who lived through it (myself included) here in cyberspace on forums like this one because back then we were young, naive and alive and we still believe that anyone in the reality of the 'here and now' gives a toss about what we think!

[Marmora Man]

he actual TRUTH NOW as I see it is

The social and political inequalities of the 1960s have been largely addressed.

The fuel that gave moral legitimacy to and fuelled bigotry has had the tap turned off.

Much of the poverty along with the slums in which people lived are gone

The standard of living of the average person is far higher than it was in 1969 and the Province has a higher standard of educational and academic achievement than that which exists in England and Wales.

People who are educated, housed, employed and fed are less inclined to be manipulated by so-called 'leaders' than those who are not.

Ordinary people have a future to look forward to.

A generation not born before or during the 'troubles' are less inclined to follow the bigotry of their parents and within a few decades will outnumber them and consign them to irrelevance.

The Long war is OVER, it exists now largely in the hearts of those who, within a few decades will be dead taking their bigotry and hatred to the grave and to history where it belongs.

Now if only these lessons could be applied to Israel / Palestine may be, just maybe, we could see peace of a sorts emerge there also. A good start would be to apply economic, educational, housing and other stimuli rather than economic sanctions to Palestine - ideally Israeli led unilateral stimuli supported by other countries.

[Mick Mac]

Santerne - you must be going for a degree in stating the bleedin' obvious.

Much of what you have said is with the benefit of hindsight, mapping some more obvious points in the development of a fairer society from an unfair one. None of this would have happended however without the civil rights movement and peaceful and non peaceful protest. Peaceful protest was found to have been futile in the face of a forces of law and order determined and encouraged to stamp out any change.

The catholic population chose to became educated as there were few employment opportunities. Also it allowed them to create their own opportinities, businnesses and professional support services. They were encouraged to do so by all catholic leaders and politicians, to dig their own way out of poverty and what you refer to as "slums".

Bigotry on both sides is unavoidable if an unfair society is allowed to fester and is even promoted. You highlight bigotry as the main reason for northern ireland's problems, but bigotry was not the problem, it was a by product of an unfair society that britain created in 1922 and positively encouraged thereafter. This situation creates great tension between the communities. You call it bigotry.

You seem to imply the people of Northern Ireland have in some way grown out of the bigotry of their parents. I can assure you that their parents were in general the most noble of people, who lived through tough times and most on both sides were mis represented by their more extreme politicians. Most lived side by side in most towns in Northern Ireland and got on with their lives despite the position they were in and what went on around them.

Please don't try to put this problem down to "bigotry" of the Northern Irish people, on either side. In short your post is extremely patronising to all of them..

Today's generation are not bigots as the situation they are in is much improved from that of their parents, to which they owe a great debt of thanks, as their parents made great sacrifices during a process of change.

Bloody Sunday was evidence of the fact that Britian was very keen to keep this unfair society in place and it was a long time before they were willing to accept the error of their approach. A lot of people suffered in drawing attention to the need for change, these people were not bigots, but a people forced apart by poor governance.

[Santerme]

It is apparent that we come from differing sides of the debate.

Clearly we each have some personal investment in the issue.

I believe that stating a case, even if it appears rehashing the obvious is a fairly good starting point for intelligent discussion, and as you have found issue with some of them we have points of reference from which to steer the converation.

As or the nobility of the Irish, I will declare an interest, my mother's maiden name is O'Connell and her father was a good Southern Irish Catholic....

Further to this, in Bosnia, I worked closely with the Irish forces deployed there.

I, in a very small way, assisted these chaps who went out to Muslims villages night after night, in civilian clothes, against specific orders and in peril of their own lives being unarmed brought out bus loads of children from the war zone to safety....

So I am well aware of the depth of compassion incredibly hard men but decent people can have in the midst not just of bigotry, but genocide.

However, normal service was not the order of the day in Northern Ireland and the men of violence exploited, intimidated and coerced normal citizens and created further division.

Going back to Bosnia....people lived in perfect harmony there for generations until the situation deteriorated and neighbours became bitter mortal enemies almost overnight.

And I can relate similar experience in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It seems endemic to the human condition.

Of course, the problem stemmed from the policies and practices implemented by the Govt in Westminster.

But the end game from the British point of view was always normalisation of the situation....this was never the stated aim of the paramilitaries and especially PIRA.

What concentrated the mind of Adams and McGuiness was the increasing levels of prosperity and it had them runnng for the comfort of the GFA, because they knew they were becoming marginalised and irrelevant.

As in any insurgency the armed forces are there as enablers to bring about conditions where a political process can become engaged in.

I always saw that as my role, I certainly had no other motivation for being there and I know of no soldier I served with who desired or enjoyed being deployed to the streets of Britsh cities under seige from terrorists.

Concluding, I would add that speaking to family both in the north and the south they seem to believe we are still a generation away from real healing.

[Mick Mac]

Thanks

It was the implication in your previous post that bigotry was at the root cause of Northern Ireland's problems. I think the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland are good people who were put in a difficult situation. My view is that poor governance created a divided society and this is bound to lead to bigotry where profound inequalities exist. Britain did not take sufficient care to ensure that the province it created in 1922 was fair and democratic and this is the root cause of the problems.