Bloody Sunday.....Official Inquiry to be published 15 June

[SCSB79]

OliviaDee Wrote:

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> the victims were wrongfully and

> unjustly accused of being terrorists engaged in

> terrorist activity and therefore considered

> legitimate targets and shot dead. >

Is it a normal course of action to carry a nail bomb in your pocket? As one of the "victms" was?

[Keef]

SCS - Terrorists by their very definition act outside the law. The atrocities of Bloody Sunday and the Widgery Report were carried out by the British Army and the British Government who are supposed to be and uphold the law. There is a massive massive difference.

I agree with you, but one could argue, that at the time, the "terrorists" would claim that they were "at war", and that the killings were not murder, but military losses. In which case, surely they should be willing to apologise for things if they expect the British army to.

Basically this whole thing was a monumental f**k up, followed by a monumental cover up. It is a shameful day in our recent history, and I'm glad it's been acknowledged.

As for the justice thing, as I said, it's just a personal thing about that word. I don't think any justice has been done here, I think the truth has finally come out, and a lot of names have been cleared 38 years too late. "Justice" would have been the truth coming out at the time, and a few court martials.

[giggirl]

Basically, what Keef said. I would add that one man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter".

[OliviaDee]

and the terrorists do claim to have been 'at war' and do claim what i would consider to be nothing other than murder as 'casualties of war.' And i agree with you entirely that they should be willing to apologise and would love to see that day too. However the onus on the Government to apologise is very different. The British Government acts on behalf of every British citizen and is meant to uphold the law, as is its army by extension. No terrorist ever committed any act in my name. The same cannot be said of the Government.

KEEF

'and a lot of names have been cleared 38 years too late'.

That is justice. Yes, very late, but justice all the same. And more than many expected.

SCS

s it a normal course of action to carry a nail bomb in your pocket? As one of the "victms" was?

The teenage victim was found to have three nail bombs actually. And there is no excuse. However those three nail bombs shouldn't, and haven't been, allowed to taint the respectability of the victims.

[SCSB79]

giggirl Wrote:

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> Basically, what Keef said. I would add that one

> man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom

> fighter".

Can you explain EXACTLY what you mean here please.

[SCSB79]

> The teenage victim was found to have three nail

> bombs actually. And there is no excuse. However

> those three nail bombs shouldn't, and haven't

> been, allowed to taint the respectability of the

> victims.

edited as probably inappropriate.

[Mick Mac]

SCSB79.

Tuesday will be remembered as an honourable day for the British Government, where it recognised that mistakes had been made and openly apologised for those mistakes.

Don't try to tarnish a good deed.

[Edited as first effort was too personal.]

[mockney piers]

SCSB79, a decade long enquiry has 100% exonerated the victims of any wrongdoing and has firmly criticised the actions of the army, for which the prime minister of this country has given an unequivocal apology.

Unless you are privy to some esoteric knowledge denied to the rest of us, I'd honestly give it a rest if I were you, especially as there are some here with personal experiences and connections. Have a modicum of respect please.

[SCSB79]

MP - this is all about personal opinions. You can't ask people not to write about the way they feel, this is an open forum designed to spark debate.

All I have done is ask what someone actually meant and highlighted some more facts around this horrible event.

I appreciate that some people will have personal experiences about this event, but you can't expect only to be allowed to talk about this sort of thing from one side of the fence.

I haven't been rude, I haven't been mean, I think I am entitled to my opinion and to throw in more questions to the debate.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I agree SCSB79. It was a public report following a lengthy public investigation. It is possible to debate and even critique the findings and possible impact with respect and decency.

This is democracy in action, it is uncomfortable at times for all concerned, but it is nescessary.

There are those, on both sides of the debate, for whom the report is NOT the last word - either because they agree with the findings and want to see further action or because they do not agree with the findings.

We should, we must be allowed to discuss this.

[mockney piers]

Fine discuss it, I'm no arbiter on what can and can't, I merely asked a degree of respect.

Can we be a little less emotive about it? I found the quotes around "victim" of a teenager shot in the back somewhat distasteful to say the least for starters.

[OliviaDee]

i agree too. i needed to debate this with interested people no matter what their opinion. yes i have felt very emotional and homesick the last few days but this definitely helped. especially when two of my friends asked me on Tuesday what Bloody Sunday was! So it was good to be here.

i really wish i hadn't missed all the edited material... or maybe that's a good thing?

[Brendan]

Why is there even an argument?

A government uses its army to suppress resistance from its own people. In order to make a point they used heavy handed tactics and end up shooting innocent civilians who were standing up for what they believe in. The government then whitewashes over and tries to justify its actions.

This sort of thing happens all over the world. This time (not for the first time) it was the British army killing innocent civilians. That?s not to say that every soldier in the British army is a murderer but neither is it some selfless saintly institution deserving of some sort of deification.

To speak metaphorically of this situation it takes a real man to own up to when they have done wrong and a filthy coward or a bully to try to weasel out of it shout the odds.

There really isn?t anything to argue about.

Although the attempt to argue does raise questions about this slavish adherence to a prescribed way of thinking in which the men we hire to do our killing for us are always infallible and correct.

[Domitianus]

I was born and bred in Northern Ireland and was a toddler at the time of Bloody Sunday. Technically, although not political or religious myself, I came from the 'other side' of the community from the victims on Bloody Sunday. Nonetheless I don't think there has ever been any doubt in the minds of anyone I have ever spoken to that Bloody Sunday was an inexcusable massaacre and that the Widgery Report was a shameful and shoddy document that should never have seen the light of day. No-one in Northern Ireland, Protestant or Catholic, Republican or Loyalist, was served by the actions of the British Army that day or by Widgery's discredited findings. The distrust of government and state that was generated at that time drove hundreds into the arms of the paramilitaries and was a catalyst for many more years of violence and hurt on all sides. Nor, ironically, was the Parachute Regiment served. A distinguished regimental history was badly smeared that day and members of the Parachute Regiment were particualrly prized targets for the IRA over the subsequent years. The equally inexcusable murder of 18 Paras at Warrenpoint was cause for considerable celebration by the IRA as much for the identity of the victims as for the number killed.

I would like to make a few specific points.

1. I accept that being a soldier in a highly charged situation is stressful and split-second decisions often need to be made. It is equally clear, however, that many of the shots fired were calculated, intended and discharged at people who posed no threat whatsoever. Furthermore the shooting continued over time. The law requires that soldiers only engage clearly identifiable gunmen or people posing an immediate threat to life. None of the victims came even close to being in this category. Many of them were running or crawling away and one was shot whilst lying on the ground, already shot and dying.

2. If the soldiers were placed in a situation where they felt stressed and under threat (a big 'if' in my book) that was the fault of the officer on the ground who ordered them into the Bogside despite receiving orders not to enter that area for the very reason that threat and conflict was possible.

3. The lad who was found to have nail bombs in his pocket? I fully believe he was carrying those and I doubt they were planted afterwards. Bottom line - he should not have been carrying them and he was guilty of a crime. The fact remains, however, that when he was shot the soldiers had absolutely no idea he was carrying nail bombs. He was running away and was NOT shot due to the contents of his pockets which the Paras were then unaware of. As far as they knew his pockets might have contained nothing but tissues, his house key and a bar of chocolate. All the other victims appear to have been completely unarmed.

4. I fully agree that forgiveness is the only way forward and I am delighted to see the progress that my province has made over the last decade or more. Forgiveness can only come, however, when crimes have been acknowledged and brought to light. As long as the Widgery findings were the state's offical version of events and innocent victims were officially labelled as being the orchestrators of their own deaths, it would have been too big an ask for people to forgive that. I believe that the Saville Report, as long and expensive as it has been, has lanced a boil in the Ulster soul and drained away a poison that lurked there. I believe that after the initial grumblings from some quarters it will constitute a watershed moment, a coming to terms with the past in a mature way and will allow a great deal of healing to take place.

As I said, I am no enemy of the army. I have friends who were soldiers and police officers in Northern ireland and who behaved with great heroism and humanity whilst serving. I went to school in the centre of Belfast when the troubles were still active and often had to divert my way home due to bomb scares or actual explosions. My belder brother was first on the scene on his University campus after two police officvers on foot patrol were blown up by a hidden bomb. One of his best friends was in a phone booth yards away when the bomb went off and she was showered with glass. You can imagine the state of her family who she was phoning at the time. He told me that his abiding memory of that incident was the fact that one of the dead policemen's beard was on fire. ANother time he was held hostage in his student digs while the IRA used the house as a look out post for a bomb ambush which fortunately they aborted. No-one is saying that the Paras on Bllody Sunday were the only bad guys but the event was so impactful that it has remained in memory for a long, long time.

There has been sin and suffering on both sides - now perhaps there can be salvation.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

What an excellent post.

[mockney piers]

Seconded.

[citizenED]

A coherent and thorough post, Dom. Trust that everyone can move forward in the spirit you suggest.

[Mick Mac]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> What an excellent post.

Agreed. All made good reading. And good to see Pgc make an appearance too, without saying very much.....'smiley'

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Football, religion and politics all in one thread - I couldn't trust myself to make a comment.

[SteveT]

I always rated you as a good poster Domitianus, but today you earned your promotion to 'great' poster.

['bout now]

A+

[Santerme]

I was still at school in 1972, but spent three years in total running Int analysis in Northern Ireland as an officer in the army during the 80's, when I was unable to get on a course which allowed me to avoid tours there..policing a British street in full battlegear was not my idea of what I joined the army to do.

This massacre was a dark stain on the honour of the army, it was simply unjustified, unjustifiable murder of innocents.

1 Para were exceptional soldiers, they were not policemen.

Given that 1971 saw an unprecedented level of violence, with hundreds of gun-battles taking place all over the Province on a daily basis, the the 'hardwiring' of the Army in reacting to it, the casualties that were being sustained (with one unit with a fatality rate of one per week) together with very weak morale and externally applied legal restraint led to a great deal of what is nowadays sanitised as 'collateral damage' in which innocent civilians in Londonderry and elsewhere in the Province were deliberately killed by angry, frustrated, aggressive and frightened teenage soldiers.

None of this has been adequately explored empirically but the Army at least attempted to impose a tighter regime after Bloody Sunday.

It ended its practice of pre-deployment (in barracks) 'Wog Style' IS training,(yes WOG style, the Paras had redployed from the Crater district of Aden) it set up NITAT, introduced much more realistic and theatre-specific training and generally became much more professional.

What is true, and needs pointing out, is that PIRA and others used human shield tactics prior and subsequent to Bloody Sunday, Kathy Feeny aged 14 was killed by an IRA gunmen firing on an army patrol whilst hiding among school children.

To really see the level of callousness deeply embedded in the Irish psyche from it's early days, simply google Ballyseedy Massacre.

It is difficult not to digress when discussing this subject.

Suspending civil authority on the streets of a British town was unforgiveable stupidity on behalf of those sitting in Westminster clueless on how to restore the rule of law to the streets.

I personally do not give a toss for the soldier or the policeman who believes that his uniform gives him a licence to murder, neither do I care very much for any organisation or official, whatever his rank that is complicit in murder by protecting the individual from the coercive jurisdiction of the court.

I do know that many thousands of soldiers who stood behind Macralon shields behaved with impecable restraint and who used minimum force to restore the rule of law and deserve the respect they got for it.

To suggest that an individual against whom a prima facie case of murder is made out, be allowed to undermine what they were attempting to achieve and in so doing destroying the very basis upon which lawful force is used by the state is risible in the extreme.

If the inquiry had not made it impossible to have a fair trial then they should have been held to account before a court of law.

We are also applying 2010 analysis to a 1972 situation, things were a little less touchy feely then....it's like Life on Mars reversed.

[Domitianus]

I think you make a number of good points there Santerme. Incidents don't happen in a vacuum and, whilst I think we agree the individual actions of soldiers on the ground were unacceptable, there should also quite rightly be a finger pointed at those at a higher level who tried to 'police' or control a public order situation in a modern democracy with a mentality that seemed to come straight out of 'Zulu'. As you quite rightly point out, 1st Batt of the Paras are a hard-nosed, highly-aggressive force not well suited at all to a policing role. The British Army had already taken casulaties over the previous weeks and months and a senior military commander (can't remember who) had already expressed his dissatisfaction that British soldiers had been taking abuse and attacks from rioters like "Aunt Sallies". I think there is little doubt that a number of units were ready to unleash a lot of frustrtion and that should have been appreciated higher up. THe police commander of Derry realised this and was strongly opposed apparently to the Paras being deployed.

Also worth remembering the frustrations of the people of the Bogside. The Civil Rights Association grew out of frustration about grave, institutionalised anti-Catholic discrimination in the apparatus of state (and I speak as a Protestant so have no axe to grind) and this was exaccerbated by the introduction of internment which was almost exclusively used against Nationalists. Many families had sons, husbands, brothers etc arrested and put in internment camps for indeterminate periods of time with no indication of what they were supposed to have done or right to challenge their detention. CRA marches had been attacked many times by Loyalists (often with the police standing by) and Nationalists had sealed off the Bogside as a result of sectarian attacks by the official police force, the RUC. THen the government had banned marches so the Nationalists felt that their avenue of legitimate protest was already being closed to them. Tempers and feelings were clearly at fever pitch on both sides. Responsible political and military command at a higher level should have been seeking to depotentiate the situation rather than exaccerbating it by sending in military units that were trained for highly aggressive action that was bound to provoke further conflict.

The law makes it clear that every individual soldier is accountable for every bullet he fires, so the individual responsibility remains. You are quite correct in pointing out that an appreciation of the larger system is also useful to cpnsider.

I am glad that lessons were learnt at the time. I think it's a crying shame that those lessons were learnt in private so to speak, behind closed doors,whilst the official version via Widgery was that there really was nothing significant to be learnt. If the Widgery Report had admitted what we all now know and had clearly set out a need for urgent reform I think that the impact of Bloody Sunday would have been less than it was.

[OliviaDee]

>

> 'To really see the level of callousness deeply

> embedded in the Irish psyche from it's early days'

is that really what you meant to say Santerme?

i liked reading your post. i don't think i've ever heard a soldier's personal POV before.

>

>

[Mick Mac]

Domitianus Wrote:

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> I am glad that lessons were learnt at the time. I

> think it's a crying shame that those lessons were

> learnt in private so to speak, behind closed

> doors,whilst the official version via Widgery was

> that there really was nothing significant to be

> learnt. If the Widgery Report had admitted what

> we all now know and had clearly set out a need for

> urgent reform I think that the impact of Bloody

> Sunday would have been less than it was.

I'm not sure about that - We should not lose sight of the fact that a Widgery Report stating the facts at the time would have done very little to improve the situation. Widgery was wrong but it was only a bit of paper, Bloody Sunday was real. The deed was done and there was a huge escalation in violence and hundreds of bombs as a result of Bloody Sunday before the Widgery Report was published. Widgery rubbed salt in the wounds, but the people of Derry knew what happended that day and did not need a report to tell them. They were probably shocked at the arrogance of the Widgery Report but it was nothing like as insulting as the act of Bloody Sunday itself. No report changes that, but ultimatley Saville has helped the govt come clean and helped people in Derry to say to the world, that yes Bloody Sunday did happen, exactly in the way they had said it did for 38 years and now we have a written confirmation that it happended.

The Civil Rights march on Bloody Sunday sang "We shall overcome"

A brother of one of the victims, last Tuesday in 2010 said into his microphone "We have overcome".

There was a lot to overcome in 1972, but it got worse before it got better.