What to do about Israel?

[mockney piers]

"The people I know who lived there described the (mostly) conscripted army as a unpredictable rabble of undertrained, frightened and often drunken young men who also happened to have guns."

A bit harsh there bob. Max Hastings considers it to be the most enlightened and intellectual army in the world, and to a certain extent its true as its made up of a genuine cross section of society.*

Mind you the below analysis of the recent invasion of Lebanon by the US Army College (they did the analysis not the invasion) considers it an army that has got soft having spent 20 years shooting at stone throwing kids from concrete towers (very rough precis there)

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub882.pdf

*where else would have such a healthy organisation of disillusioned soldiers speaking out about the wars they are sent on.

[Mick Mac]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> "No - you went over and shot people instead....."

> more facile nonsense.

> > So in other words they came over and got shot.

> PLus 125 of those were innocent English civilians

> killed by republicans, so don't get all high and

> mighty.

>

> If you're referring to bloody sunday, it was daft

> to send shock troops to police a peaceful civilian

> march, but they were fired on by snipers who knew

> what the response would be and got the result they

> wanted, a huge recruiting sergeant and the

> effective end of the civil rights movement as a

> viable means.

>

Sorry Mockney, but you are way off the right track with that post. Its the sort of analysis I'd expect from an ill informed teacher trying to get the basic British defence over to an English GCSE class. And that's not meant as a put down, its a routine line of argument which is trotted out many times, its both simplistic and one sided. An excuse invested for the disgraceful treatment of UK citizens.

Its Narnia's thread but I wanted to respond to Jah's comment, which implied britain behaved honourably in the face of bombs in England.

[jimmy two times]

The one thing I do know about history is that it's written by the Victors.

[*Bob*]

Possibly a bit harsh.. and a fair point that a lot can happen in twenty years (or rather, not a lot)

Is having an army made-up of a genuine cross-section of society really a good thing? Like any other profession you ought to have people that 'fit' and are good at it, not people who are made to do it. All our dentists are drawn from a genuine cross-section of society.

> *where else would have such a healthy organisation

> of disillusioned soldiers speaking out about the

> wars they are sent on.

That's conscription for you.

[expat]

They boarded ships in international waters that is I believe against international law.

They then took the ships to a local port and arrested the people on board I doubt that is even beginning to be legal.

[mockney piers]

Sorry Mick though in fairness I was responding to 'they came over and shot people' which would hardly qualify as 11+ now would it ;-)

Of Bloody Sunday it may be a little simplistic but basically holds water. Of the other abuses, I am aware of them and would never defend them. In fact if you've read me on these boards over the last few years you'll know I've been incredibly critical of Britain's recent policies and often horrific past.

I consider all forms of empire to be intrinsically evil, and any form of coercion through violence to be barbaric, hence my hatred of neo cons, new labour and Israeli policy.

On the other hand I do have several friends who served in NI and they are unanimous in what a dark, depressing and terrifying place it was to be posted, one of whom lost friends there. Without exception they considered Bosnia less awful as at least they felt they were doing good there.

Incidentally I also know several Israelis who have served across 2 generations of conflicts there, and the younger ones have similar thoughts about their postings (actually the air force guy who served in the first Lebanon invasion was none too thrilled either).

To a certain extent I do sympathise with soldiers who want to do the right thing for their country in general but have governments who's ends are more nefarious.

Even in this case as someone posted out, pity the poor IDF men who were given this task; they'd have known it was an absolute turkey (no pun intended) of a mission.

[jimmy two times]

I think it's legal to board ships in international waters if they are suspected to be carrying weapons of mass destruction or are engaging in terrorist activities.

[*Bob*]

Surely, by now, the phrase 'weapons of mass destruction' can only really have a very limited usage - as a feed line for jokes on panel shows.. that sort-of thing?

It was completely ridiculous in the first place. Say it a few times. It even sounds ridiculous.

Weapons of mass destruction

Weapons of mass destruction

Weapons of mass destruction

Weapons of mass destruction

See? Ridiculous.

[mockney piers]

"I think it's legal to board ships in international waters if they are suspected to be carrying weapons of mass destruction or are engaging in terrorist activities."

Or indeed invade countries, err or 'occupy' them?

[jimmy two times]

See that thread called 'little things that cause you irrational rage'...why don't you stick my name in it. Might make you feel a bit better. :))

[mockney piers]

it would have to be irrational! ;-P

[Mick Mac]

Mockney - I'm not surprised to read that you have friends in the forces having read your initial post. I'd suggest you would have been influenced very differently if you had friends who lived in Derry in the 70s. There are two sides to every debate. I'm suggesting yours is the traditional British one.

Sorry but I am also unimpressed with anyone that claims other people's posts are "more facile nonsense". Its a bit high handed.

[mockney piers]

Fair points all Bob.

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Possibly a bit harsh.. and a fair point that a lot

> can happen in twenty years (or rather, not a lot)

>

> Is having an army made-up of a genuine

> cross-section of society really a good thing? Like

> any other profession you ought to have people that

> 'fit' and are good at it, not people who are made

> to do it. All our dentists are drawn from a

> genuine cross-section of society.

>

> > *where else would have such a healthy

> organisation

> > of disillusioned soldiers speaking out about

> the

> > wars they are sent on.

>

> That's conscription for you.

[mockney piers]

Perhaps, but then my best man grew up in Derry in the 1970s, he used to bring back rubber bullets from his holidays after he'd moved here to my school; his dad, a good friend of mine with whom I've discussed politics more often than I care to mention, was himself a school mate of a certain Mr McGuiness, so I'm not showing bias, just empathy.

And again, in all fairness it was at the very least a simplistic post wasn't it.

[jimmy two times]

Guess that makes you an expert on it then.

[mockney piers]

i couldn't decide troll or not, you've at least answered my question.

[Mick Mac]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps, but then my best man grew up in Derry in

> the 1970s, he used to bring back rubber bullets

> from his holidays after he'd moved here to my

> school; his dad, a good friend of mine with whom

> I've discussed politics more often than I care to

> mention, was himself a school mate of a certain Mr

> McGuiness, so I'm not showing bias, just empathy.

>

>

> And again, in all fairness it was at the very

> least a simplistic post wasn't it.

It was a very simplistic post Mockney. I'm afraid there is no getting away from that. I expected as i was typing that you might come back with a Derry friend. That said, he has a bit of work to do to, to balance your views. I doubt many people from Derry would be impressed with your analysis of Bloody Sunday.

[vinceayre]

Burma I think but not sure now, the person who told me how he had his men kill the terrorists is long dead but it would have been just after the war.

[mockney piers]

Indeed I'm sure they wouldn't Mick and I genuinely wasn't trying to stir, sorry if I offended.

Vince, I'll have to look into it, but I've a feeling that we didn't really get involved in Burma after their independence, mind you that was 1948, not sure about straight after the war.

We did indeed have a policy of effectively extrajudicial executions in what became Malaysia, but one of the reason counter-insurgency was more successful than in most places was that the communist rebels were mostly ethnic Chinese with little support among the locals and thus rather easier to tell apart.

Again, something of a might makes right, and not something I would approve of, though in this case the locals, taxed, intimidated and often murdered by the insurgents, probably did!

Perhaps what he meant was that they crossed into Burmese territory where they hid out to carry out the executions?

[Loz]

northlondoner Wrote:

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> Loz let's say, for arguments sake , a group of

> activists were able to beat up a group of heavily

> armed highly trained , combat ready soldiers.

> Killing NINE people seems an insane over

> reaction. I'd like to think our troops would never

> act in such a way. And btw where is St Obama in

> all this? Imagine US reaction if, say, iranian

> soldiers killed nine civilians in similar

> circumstances. I mean, I support the guy, but he's

> been a bit of a pssuy on this. He should take a

> break from scoring cheap populist points against

> BP and show

> some actual leadership on this important

> international issue. Its time to man up.

> His government is israels chief supporter and

> sponsor, after all.

Over and above the question of whether the IDF should be there or not (and I'm fairly sure the answer is that they shouldn't), if I am armed with a paintball gun and a revolver and a bunch of people are smacking me with iron bars/wooden clubs/whatever, I know which one I will be reaching for.

I can see the right and wrong of both sides of the Israel/Palestinian argument. Israel needs to recognise Palestine's right to exist as a country and Palestine and surrounding countries need to recognise Israel's right to exist as a country. Both need to sit down around a table and negotiate; but neither side really want to. I think the world should be encouraging both sides to find a solution - taking sides is only making the situation worse. Too many people are using the Palestinians to further other causes.

Personally, I think Gaza should be declared a UN enclave with the appropriate peacekeeping troops until a solution is found. Demilitarise and disarm the area completely and get the necessary aid in. Then sort out the politics.

[Mick Mac]

Not offended at all Mockney by your opinion - but could not allow your post to sit unchallenged. My response to Jah was intended to be exactly what it was, short, but I can assure it was not "facile". That I was offended by.

[mockney piers]

made me chuckle anyway

[intexasatthe moment]

If anyone wants to urge their MP to sign an Early Day Motion which condemns Israel?s attack on the aid convoy, supports the UN?s call for an independent enquiry, and demands an immediate end to the blockade of Gaza as well as a lasting settlement establishing an independent state of Palestine just visit http://www.psc.iparl.com/lobby/50 and put in your postcode - easy as that.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

Did anyone hear that someoneon the ship who was trying to photograph the Isreali commandos was shot dead for his troubles. I wonder how much footage that isn't isreali propoganda we will actually get to see after they have finished searching the boats and their occupants.

[HAL9000]

I read that passengers' cameras, mobiles and laptops were confiscated. It looks like Israel may have broadcast a few movie clips taken by passengers but only those that support its case. I doubt if anything else will see the light of day.