ORCA Local - East Dulwich

[HAL9000]

Hugo - accusations of engaging in fraud and major crime against a named individual and local business venture are defamatory and libellous.

Admin has received official notice to that effect and a request to remove it. The law is on the side of the complainant in this case. See Laurence Godfrey v. Demon Internet Limited.

Not withstanding your 'threat' to leave the forum if you don't get your own way, I think you should bow to common sense and recognise that this thread will have an adverse effect on JF?s and ORCA Local Dulwich?s reputations.

You've made your point - I'm sure it has been taken aboard.

[Administrator]

What would you do in my situation HAL9000?

[HAL9000]

I wouldn't allow myself to be blackmailed into getting embroiled in a hopeless legal action just to appease someone's ego.

[Administrator]

I was asking for help there HAL9000 and hoping for a useful answer, not a patronising dig at myself and Huguenot.

Any chance of a useful answer please?

[HAL9000]

I was being serious, actually, given Hugo's post over in the 'about' section. From a legal point of view, I don't think you'd have a leg to stand on. You have to ask yourself whether ORCA is likely to take up their franchisee's cause. Another point is that the thread, by association, trashes the reputations of all the local businesses that have already signed up to the card scheme.

If it were my choice, I'd take down the thread - it can't really be edited without losing its context, at this late stage.

I'm pretty sure Hugo is not entirely impervious to common sense and will come to see the wisdom of that decision.

[SeanMacGabhann]

what about those of us who were spammed by the fake ID in question - do we not get a say?

If I had a facebook invite from ORCA I'd probably have accepted it - to have it from some unknown woman and to have that unknown woman make no mention of the business reason behind the invite and the to hide behind "mates" IS dishonest

If I were a local business I would have regrets about signing up to someone who uses such dishonest practices

It is NOT the thread that has the adverse effect on JR or Orca, it is her actions

Her attitude when questioned has not helped endear her either.

[Fuschia]

Some more recent case law regarding the status of discussions on bulletin boards being more slander than libel...

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/5176-Bulletin-Boards-Slander-Or-Libel.htm

I think some of Huguenot's comments are certainly robust in their tone. However, if it is in fact true that fake FB ids have been created in order to push the ED ORCA site up site rankings, then that in itself would be a valid defence. You can't be found guilty of libel if what you have said is true.

Also, this extract from that law review seems very pertinent:

"comments were likely to be considered as 'fair comment' i.e. they cannot be considered as defamatory if they are posted without malice and represent the posters honest views...Opinions may be expressed in exaggerated and strident terms; the only requirement is that they be honestly held. "

There is a tendency for people to rush to intimidate site owners when they don't like comments made about them, threatening possible legal action. This has the effect of stifling free speech.

[HAL9000]

SMG - the same points you made in the food poisoning thread apply here, I think. If the individual and the business had not been named then I would agree that this is a valid and interesting topic.

We can't even be certain that any subterfuge has taken place - it's suspicion and speculation at this stage.

[HAL9000]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> threatening ... legal action. This has the effect of

> stifling free speech.

I would ask whether you are prepared to bankroll Admin's defence in order to discover whether 'fair comment' applies in this case? How much are you prepared to pay for the right to moan about an unsolicited friend request on this forum?

[Fuschia]

I am a site mod on another site and we have had to deal with this sort of issue on many occasions. I haven't got time tight this minute to read back through this thread with a fine toothcomb, but I'd be interested to know which particular comments you feel to be defamatory?

[HAL9000]

The accusations of engaging in fraud and 'major crime' (inter alia).

[Fuschia]

Where does it say that, precisely?

[katie1997]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> what about those of us who were spammed by the

> fake ID in question - do we not get a say?

>

> If I had a facebook invite from ORCA I'd probably

> have accepted it - to have it from some unknown

> woman and to have that unknown woman make no

> mention of the business reason behind the invite

> and the to hide behind "mates" IS dishonest

When someone signs up to facebook, agreeing to their terms & conditions, they do advise that if you have concerns about privacy/spam to use the 'report' function.

Of course, anyone can come on a public forum to air a grievance (and often do) but shouldn't the correct channel for reporting serious allegations be used in the first instance - in this case, via your own facebook account? Has there been no satisfactory resolution of the alleged spam/privacy concerns (presuming that facebook members have reported this) by the people who run the facebook site?

I dislike spam and I'm not condoning it. I fully agree that its disconcerting when facebook seemingly connects you to people/events in mysterious ways. IMO navigating the privacy settings on there has become a nightmare lately (for a non-techy person like me anyway).

[SeanMacGabhann]

It's not the same thing as the good poisoning thread at all

we can safely assume no restaurant deliberately sets out to poison a customer

in the orca case we have a number of people sent a deliberate invite with no mention of their bsiness. The ids used are beyond coincidentally similar. And when called on it the person involved could hbe owned up to it. They haven't. So they are still misleading people. Deliberately.

If I am wrong then I would be happy to discuss with the people who asked me to be a friend on facebook why they were willing to help jr out. Of course that won't happen will it?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Good points katie. Although I'm not bothered about Facebook privacy. Its the fact that Jen said they were Friends who she enlisted. So she engaged on this forum and outside facebook jurisdiction. Does anyone think these friends are real in the sense that they are the people they claim to be on their profile?

[HAL9000]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> Where does it say that, precisely?

I'd rather you look it up yourself. I'm sure you know why.

[Fuschia]

HAL9000 Wrote:

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> The accusations of engaging in fraud and 'major

> crime' (inter alia).

I don't really understand your comment about how I should look this up for myself "and I'm sure you know why" (and I really should be off the internet doing something else but I have been through this thread very carefully and all I can find are these three remarks:

* With those little cheats you've been caught out with above, it seems Jenn that you have less of a socialist ambition, and more of a flair for manipulation and deception?

* I think the only success you're likely to attract is an appearance on Watchdog alongside timeshare sharks.

* Setting up fake IDs to your personal financial advantage is a confidence trick. It's simply a confidence trick.

Whether you like it or not, or whether you're willing to admit it or not, that makes you a con artist.

[ianr]

I would not have asserted that Autumn R and Theodore S aren't real people (and note that Huguenot has recently said he takes Jennifer at her word). Autumn currently has 56 FB friends, including two of the members of FB ORCA Local Dulwich (but not including Jennifer or TS). A local blogger (not an ORCA LD FB member) also includes Autumn and another ORCA LD member as friends.

Comparing some of the content of their profiles (they're both members of FB ORCA Local Dulwich), I do get the impression of some concerted activity: in particular, the bit.ly short links they provide to their websites are identical and link to the Facebook page for ORCA Local Dulwich.

TS: Current City: London, United Kingdom/ Hometown: London, United Kingdom

AR: Political Views: Democratic Party

TS: Political Views: Democratic Party

AR: Religious Views: Christian

TS: Religious Views: Christian

AR: I'm very active and I love to have dinners with my friends.

TS: I'm an energetic male. I'd like to watch movies with my friends.

AR: In my spare time, I often read books.

TS: In my spare time, I often read books.

AR: I love to be friends with lots of people.

TS: I would love to be friends with lots of people.

AR: So I'd love to be your friend too.

TS: So I would love to be in your friends list.

AR: I really enjoy life!

TS: what a nice man I am!

AR: Contact Info Website: http://bit.ly/9IjY1n

TS: Contact Info Website: http://bit.ly/9IjY1n

[Ed: sorry, Theodore, not Thomas]

[HAL9000]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> So they are still misleading people. Deliberately.

How often does a viral video on YouTube turn out to be a covert advert? Every time we log into Google or other sites that offer adverts and banners based on covertly collected profiling data - it's all covert marketing. Like it or not that is how the web has evolved. It happens all the time. Everyone is doing it. Software is available that does it automatically.

All one has to do is ignore unsolicited friend requests, emails and web adverts - we do it every day. Why make a mountain out of this particular molehill?

[katie1997]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Good points katie. Although I'm not bothered about

> Facebook privacy. Its the fact that Jen said they

> were Friends who she enlisted. So she engaged on

> this forum and outside facebook jurisdiction. Does

> anyone think these friends are real in the sense

> that they are the people they claim to be on their

> profile?

Fair enough Sean if you're not bothered about facebook privacy yet the person who started a public thread on the EDF clearly does have concerns which have been outlined for all to see on the original posting, which expresses concerns about the validity of those friend requests.

So (IMO) the jurisdiction of facebook should have been used to (hopefully) resolve that (facebook) members concerns in the first instance. It doesn't appear to have been the course of action taken. The business involved wouldn't have had to engage publicly on the forum outwith facebook jurisdiction then.

[HAL9000]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> I don't really understand your comment about how I

> should look this up for myself "and I'm sure you

> know why"

I thought with the legal prowess you've demonstrated herein you'd be aware of the potential risks undertaken when one reposts allegedly libellous comments - apparently not!

[Fuschia]

HAL9000 Wrote:

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> I thought with the legal prowess you've

> demonstrated herein you'd be aware of the

> potential risks undertaken when one reposts

> allegedly libellous comments - apparently not!

And I haven't seen any comemnts which accuse Jennifer of "a major crime"

[katie1997]

Did anyone who was contacted on facebook with these alleged fake friend requests/privacy concerns report it to facebook?

[Fuschia]

katie1997 Wrote:

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> Did anyone who was contacted on facebook with

> these alleged fake friend requests/privacy

> concerns report it to facebook?

Yes

[HAL9000]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> And I haven't seen any comemnts which accuse

> Jennifer of "a major crime"

The implication is in the two paragraphs that follow your final quote above.