Southern trains contract- crowdfunding for judicial review

[Minitoots]

In connection with my post below re: Southern, I've just found out about a Crowdfunding scheme for a Judicial Review of the Department for Transport?s handling of the Southern Rail franchise. Even though there seem to be a few more trains this week, do have a look:-

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/southernrail/

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In addition to writing to MPs, TFL etc, we and all our friends and work colleagues who are affected by the train cancellations are writing directly to Southern to invoice them for breaking their contract. If enough people contact them directly, it might help? Here's our letter to Southern:-

Southern:-

I have contracted you to take me to London based on your previously advertised timetable and you are failing in your obligations.

There are now no trains between 8.30am & 9.20am on the East Dulwich to London bridge route meaning I have no way to arrive at my work on time due to early morning commitments. A similar lack of service occurs in the evening meaning

I have to leave work early to be home for evening commitments. This situation is typical for other employees at my business. I have calculated that the loss to my business since the cancellation of previously advertised services stands at 21.5 hours.

I am writing to advise you that from Monday 18th July I will be charging Southern for the lost productivity at our standard hourly rates and will invoice you at each month end.

Yours, etc....

[Jeremy]

We're all pissed off... but how is this going to help?

[The Urbanite]

The contract you refer to is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage - unfortunately, it is stated that the railways will accept no liability for consequential losses arising from service disruption.

Section 42c - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

[Lowlander]

There have been several attempts by lawyers over the last 20 years to sue rail companies for loss of earnings, but no successes.

You could get a refund on a season ticket for the time left on it, and/or compensation (80p per journey!) if you're delayed more than 30 minutes.

To start legal proceedings, i.e. sue them, you'd do well to employ a qualified lawyer.

The process would go like this:

1. Go through their complaints procedure to try and get the compensation you're after

2. Establish a legal case (preferably with the help of a solicitor), based on the various terms and conditions, passenger charters and National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC)

The contract is quite vague (Department for Transport specify the timetables and service levels and contract that to GTR, who in turn run Southern).

Passengers are bound by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage: http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/national-rail-conditions-of-carriage/ which as others have said does not allow for consequential loss

Conditions of Carriage and charter: http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/passengers-charter/

Complaints procedure http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/customer-services/

The best step would be to find a firm of solicitors who would be willing to take this on (preferably on a no-win no fee or pro bono basis), then organise a class action suite.

[first mate]

Surely that cannot mean any disruption at all? There is a difference between outside influences that disrupt the service and bad management? If a service is not fit for purpose is that not grounds to take action? Does Southern advertise? If so how is the service presented? I'm no lawyer so would be interested to hear from one but if the service is beyond accountability, protected by a useless contract, that has to be addressed.

[Lowlander]

first mate Wrote:

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> Surely that cannot mean any disruption at all?

> There is a difference between outside influences

> that disrupt the service and bad management? If a

> service is not fit for purpose is that not grounds

> to take action? Does Southern advertise? If so how

> is the service presented? I'm no lawyer so would

> be interested to hear from one but if the service

> is beyond accountability, protected by a useless

> contract, that has to be addressed.

In the same way you can't sue an airline, coach company, ferry service or toll road for loss of earnings. When you travel on the trains, you do so by accepting the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Southern, despite their abysmal performance, have not breached them or any other contract.

The only way to solve this is to revamp the franchising system on the railways. Sadly neither Labour nor Conservatives seem willing to do that. Ultimately we are beholden to the politicians.

[Louisa]

Re-nationalise the whole network. Problem solved.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re-nationalise the whole network. Problem solved.

Might solve the problem of under-staffing. Won't solve the problem of repeated industrial action, with which I have rapidly diminishing sympathy.

[uncleglen]

Re-nationalisation is not good. There was wholesale fraud going on in the public transport sector before privatisation- I know that for a fact...the tax payer was footing the bill so who cared? Not the person taking a back -hander for a contract, and not his boss either. Compulsory Competitive Tendering went a long way to address the problems inherent in the public ownership of services, both at local council level and in transport etc

[Lowlander]

uncleglen, that's irrelevant as (a) CCT stopped that element, and (b)the private sector is far from immune to corruption.

National Rail (who run the track and infrastructure) are a nationalised company.

The East Coast line was publicly run for 6 years from 2009 to 2015.

[Jeremy]

I'm on the fence over the whole nationalisation thing. I'd like to see profits re-invested. But I don't know if I really trust a public body to do a better job... there were plenty of problems back in the BR days.

[Burbage]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The only way to solve this is to revamp the

> franchising system on the railways. Sadly neither

> Labour nor Conservatives seem willing to do that.

> Ultimately we are beholden to the politicians.

It's worse than that. We're beholden to the Department for Transport, the dead hand that mashed three franchises together and gave them to Govia with a promise to bung them a billion if anyone bought tickets or not. They have been smirking on the sidelines ever since, knowing that however much flak gets thrown at Govia, the RMT, Network Rail or the politicians, none of it will hit the DfT.

The last time they presided over a massive franchising cods-up was with the West Coast Main Line fiasco. The chief culprit of that nonsense, rather than being censured, went off to spend a gentle few years heading up HMRC, retiring shortly before Parliament asked too many questions (the reply to which was, more or less, that knowledge of tax was beyond her pay grade). The current permanent secretary, the virtually-anonymous Philip Rutnam, who previously loomed over the largely invisible area of industrial policy at the Department for Business, has spent the last four years reorganising things so rail is now outsourced to a Rail Executive that nobody knows about because it swiftly disappeared into the miasmic Office for Rail and Road, where it's entirely separate from the Rail Franchising Directorate, while its mayfly Director General skipped off to the Department of Food. If this, to the untrained eye, looks like a bunkerisation exercise, that's probably for good reason.

The officially-sanctioned solution to Southern's woes is to give Govia more time. Govia claims, impressively glibly, to have been training up the missing drivers, and will have more or less enough by sometime in this, or next, summer. Provided those drivers stay put, do whatever shifts are asked of them and comply with projections for sick leave, holidays, retirement, overtime and 'rest day' working, everything will be fine. If they don't, then maybe it'll be the summer after next. They'll need guards, too. But they've got enough for the moment, and if Govia gets its way over the RMT, they'll be able to train new ones at the drop of hat, as they won't need to do anything more safety-critical than breathe, and sometimes not even that. So, provided the Rail Accident Investigation Bureau's report into 'trap and drag' incidents can be quietly shelved, and the RMT placated, it's all set for a glorious autumn, sometime in the next three years.

Admittedly, this cheerful prognosis rests precariously on the assumption that Network Rail, serially-frustrated optimists when it comes to planning anything, manage not to make anything worse and, with Christmas a little over six months away, history is not a very comforting guide. Happily, however, that won't be the DfT's fault, either.

All of which, I hope, crystallises the reason why nothing, apart from fares, will be changing soon. Your suggestion of revamping the franchising system is too little too late. They've already done that, twice, and it just made things worse. And renationalisation, the damp sparkler of hope in the socialist mitten, can only lead to burnt fingers. It's easy to imagine that the trains couldn't get any worse, even if they were handed to a bunch of ignorant, talentless, incompetent bureaucrats. But reality, as everyone over the age of six well knows, is invariably more disappointing than imagination.

[Lowlander]

Good summary Burbage.

I had thought, charitably, that GTR had simply failed to conduct proper due diligence when taking over the franchise, and had been caught out when they realised that their predecessor was short on drivers.

It's finally dropped that their due diligence was focussed on another area - obtaining a guaranteed revenue stream in return for very little work.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Re-nationalise the whole network. Problem solved.

I believe that, strictly speaking, the Southern Rail network IS nationalised. Govia merely manage it, rather than own the franchise. The DfT owns the franchise.

[lpool]

Burbage Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The only way to solve this is to revamp the

> > franchising system on the railways. Sadly

> neither

> > Labour nor Conservatives seem willing to do

> that.

> > Ultimately we are beholden to the politicians.

>

> It's worse than that. We're beholden to the

> Department for Transport, the dead hand that

> mashed three franchises together and gave them to

> Govia with a promise to bung them a billion if

> anyone bought tickets or not. They have been

> smirking on the sidelines ever since, knowing that

> however much flak gets thrown at Govia, the RMT,

> Network Rail or the politicians, none of it will

> hit the DfT.

>

> The last time they presided over a massive

> franchising cods-up was with the West Coast Main

> Line fiasco. The chief culprit of that nonsense,

> rather than being censured, went off to spend a

> gentle few years heading up HMRC, retiring shortly

> before Parliament asked too many questions (the

> reply to which was, more or less, that knowledge

> of tax was beyond her pay grade). The current

> permanent secretary, the virtually-anonymous

> Philip Rutnam, who previously loomed over the

> largely invisible area of industrial policy at the

> Department for Business, has spent the last four

> years reorganising things so rail is now

> outsourced to a Rail Executive that nobody knows

> about because it swiftly disappeared into the

> miasmic Office for Rail and Road, where it's

> entirely separate from the Rail Franchising

> Directorate, while its mayfly Director General

> skipped off to the Department of Food. If this, to

> the untrained eye, looks like a bunkerisation

> exercise, that's probably for good reason.

>

> The officially-sanctioned solution to Southern's

> woes is to give Govia more time. Govia claims,

> impressively glibly, to have been training up the

> missing drivers, and will have more or less enough

> by sometime in this, or next, summer. Provided

> those drivers stay put, do whatever shifts are

> asked of them and comply with projections for sick

> leave, holidays, retirement, overtime and 'rest

> day' working, everything will be fine. If they

> don't, then maybe it'll be the summer after next.

> They'll need guards, too. But they've got enough

> for the moment, and if Govia gets its way over the

> RMT, they'll be able to train new ones at the drop

> of hat, as they won't need to do anything more

> safety-critical than breathe, and sometimes not

> even that. So, provided the Rail Accident

> Investigation Bureau's report into 'trap and drag'

> incidents can be quietly shelved, and the RMT

> placated, it's all set for a glorious autumn,

> sometime in the next three years.

>

> Admittedly, this cheerful prognosis rests

> precariously on the assumption that Network Rail,

> serially-frustrated optimists when it comes to

> planning anything, manage not to make anything

> worse and, with Christmas a little over six months

> away, history is not a very comforting guide.

> Happily, however, that won't be the DfT's fault,

> either.

>

> All of which, I hope, crystallises the reason why

> nothing, apart from fares, will be changing soon.

> Your suggestion of revamping the franchising

> system is too little too late. They've already

> done that, twice, and it just made things worse.

> And renationalisation, the damp sparkler of hope

> in the socialist mitten, can only lead to burnt

> fingers. It's easy to imagine that the trains

> couldn't get any worse, even if they were handed

> to a bunch of ignorant, talentless, incompetent

> bureaucrats. But reality, as everyone over the age

> of six well knows, is invariably more

> disappointing than imagination.

The references to DfT Rail Executive are out of date as it no longer exists - Rail is now simply a department within DfT. ORR is a separate organisation. Not sure I would describe the DG being promoted to Permanent Secretary at DEFRA as skipping off. What's changing on fares - I missed that one.

[von]

Sign this petition and pass it on, who knows, every little may help:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-southern-rail-and-govia-thameslink-rail-of-the-franchise?bucket=blast

[Burbage]

lpool Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The references to DfT Rail Executive are out of

> date as it no longer exists - Rail is now simply a

> department within DfT. ORR is a separate

> organisation. Not sure I would describe the DG

> being promoted to Permanent Secretary at DEFRA as

> skipping off. What's changing on fares - I missed

> that one.

That was my point. The responsibility for rail has been split and shuffled about so much in recent years, that it's almost impossible to work out who should take a kicking. Which is probably why they did it.

As for the fares, the news is that they'll be rising in the new year, at a rate above inflation. It's not, of course, news. This has happened every year for the last two decades, and passengers have been promised better stations, longer trains, more seats, modern rolling stock, greater reliability, a degree of punctuality and electrification as far as the briny sea (or, at least, Bristol) etc. What we've actually had is, at least in the view of some, subtly different.

[Earl Aelfheah]

we all pay our taxes in, a few get to take profits out. It's an backwards kind of redistribution.

[Minitoots]

-- moved topic --

[miga]

As I've said before, I know things are particularly bad on Southern, but it baffles me why Govia's equally bad Thameslink never managed to get people's ire to this extent.

[Earl Aelfheah]

This: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/19/southern-rail-failure-crush-unions

[Jeremy]

IMO if technology can replace humans, or make a process more efficient, it will eventually happen. So I have little sympathy for the unions on this one. It kind of reminds me of the ridiculous black cabs/uber debacle.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> IMO if technology can replace humans, or make a

> process more efficient, it will eventually happen.

> So I have little sympathy for the unions on this

> one. It kind of reminds me of the ridiculous black

> cabs/uber debacle.

The alleged union 'sick-note strike' is a total smokescreen. The problem is the crazy, failed privatisation model.

Southern is in collapse whilst "..the boss of Go Ahead, David Brown, has just seen his annual pay soar above ?2m, and the dividend payout to his shareholders has jumped to ?37m. Someone is making a lot of money out of grotesque failure."

It's a shameful state of affairs and the politicians seem powerless to do anything about it.

[Lowlander]

Jeremy it's a little more complicated than that but essentially:

1. GTR took over the franchise knowing that there were not enough drivers to cover all workings

2. They relied on overtime to fill the gap

3. As part of this dispute, GTR took away certain staff benefits (partner's subsidised travel, free parking)

4. Required as sick note for all sickness, which means staff stay off until they can get a doctor's appointment before returning to work (imagine that at DMC!!)

5. Failed miserably in trying to reschedule staff rotas

The unions and drivers for their part have:

1. Not done as much overtime as they used to (they're not contractually obliged to work it, and during the summer holidays for instance many don't)

2. Dug their heels in over the extension of Driver Operated Only trains

3. Arguably taken longer sick leave as they are now obliged to get a sick note

Whilst I blame both parties, the Government and GTR should be considered to be about 80% liable for this mess. Someone in charge needs to sit both parties down and get an amicable solution. And recruit more drivers.

Even the tube drivers, who are traditionally a more militant lot, have never caused disruption on a comparable scale.

[Cardelia]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As I've said before, I know things are

> particularly bad on Southern, but it baffles me

> why Govia's equally bad Thameslink never managed

> to get people's ire to this extent.

Back in 2010, when Thameslink was *really* bad, it was run by FirstGroup as First Capital Connect. They're the ones who continually failed to train/employ sufficient drivers to cover the rota, a problem which was inherited by GTR when it took over the Thameslink franchise two years ago. And there are lots of other historical FirstGroup-related problems which GTR inherited and have contributed to the current farce. But to say that Thameslink never got people's ire to this extent isn't correct, it's just that FCC only ran a few services through this area of London when things were really bad so most ED-based commuters wouldn't have been affected by the problems.