Prep/junior school options for boys - some questions

[littleEDfamily]

Ps Sorry, snowboarder for going off on tangent.

[sillywoman]

Hmmm, suspicious of your costings there LEDF - smacks a bit of self justification to me, & I know for a fact you're wrong - but we're well off topic now, the 'move or stump up' is a whole other debate, so I'm bowing out of this one with apologies to OP for taking the thread in a different direction.

[littleEDfamily]

Look, there is no doubt that if you are already established in a 'family' size home in the catchment for an exceptional state school, it's easy to feel self satisfied with your sitution and write off the need for private school.

If you're in a small house in one of ED's primary school 'black holes', it's very understandable that people would want to explore private school options. Moving costs alone could easily add ?30,000 to the size of your mortgage. It makes no sense that there would be no differential between the cost of a house in an area, zoned for say, Hamlets, and one in ED where you were unlikely to even get your first 3 choices. There would have to be other variables which counteracted the schools issue for them to remain on par.

If you have more than one child, there is little doubt that over an entire school career it works our cheaper and may therefore make more sense, to pay to get closer to a good state school than to pay for private (especially if a) you believe there are state schools which are as good as or better than private and b)if a house move will get you into great schools for primary AS WELL AS high school and c) are committed to staying in that area d) you can get the financing to move).

BUT for some families, especially those who are dubious about non-private options after primary (which I think is definitely an issue round these parts), the option of significantly increasing your mortgage debt when your first child is 3 in order to get into a supposedly good state school, just isn't as attractive as staying put, selecting a private school of your choice, working to increase the equity in your existing home as much as possible and trying to improve your financial position gradually. In our case, the plan is to pay for private primary school education and then (assuming our children make the cut) send them to grammar schools or other excellent state secondary schools outside of London later on. It means we have none of the stress (and potentially poor outcomes) of the state primary school admissions process in ED, feel we are giving our kids the best early education available and aren't mortgaged to the hilt in the meantime.

I know I am off track, yet again, so shall now bow out too (unless anyone cares enough to start a new thread in which I will happily rant on...hmmm... unlikely....).

[minder]

Just to say my youngest is in Year 6 at Dulwich Hamlet. I applied for a place for her during her time at another state school (which my older two also went to from Nursery until Year 6) and which I was happy with at the time. We applied in the middle of Year 4. I didn't think she would get in and we went to number 15 on a list at the time of application. A couple of weeks later were told we were number one on list as we were "12 minutes walking distance". Daughter then got a place a month or so later when somebody moved away.

Also, I've lived within 15-20 minute walk of the Hamlet all my life (and my husband), so not everyone has to move into a catchment area - we're already in it! I don't feel self-satisfied with my situation - it's just something that's happened.

Also, my husband went to The Charter when it was the old William Penn boys school. Not many people were moving into the area then , believe me, and we have been lucky enough to get places for our 3 children there and we have remained in the area.

[sillywoman]

Yes, my husband has the same roots here minder - he's Herne Hill born & breed. We didn't move into a catchment area either, just stuck with the area he knew through bad times & now good ones (I cried when we first drove down LL to house hunt cos it was so grotty!). And yes LEDF, our house prices are the same as those in the ED schools 'black hole', slightly less actually. We have small gardens and a mix of privately owned, council & housing association - I guess that combination puts people off?

Now 2 of our kids are at the Charter, the others in the Village. We don't have any issues at all with the local 'non-private options after primary' nor - seemingly - do any of our neighbours. I don't think being content with what we've got makes us self satisfied? Maybe it comes down to what we expect from a school? I just wanted my children to have the opportunity to learn in the best way they could, in an environment where they were surrounded by friends and people they've known all their lives. I wanted them to have roots and feel a part of a community, to walk past houses of people they knew on their daily journey to school. The schools they're at tick all those boxes for me, but I can see that those particular boxes aren't as important for everyone. Each to their own according to their circumstances, diversity makes the world go round and for interesting forum debate.

[Rogue Apostrophe]

Oh sillywoman, nobody wants diversity around here, do they? Certainly not from what I've read on the forum!

[sb]

.

[manicmouse]

My son has been at Oakfield for 2 years and is absolutely thriving. Some people have said it's not as good as the other prep schools in the area, but I would have to disagree with this. I think that rather than not being as good it's just a lot less pushy and "exclusive". The kids come from a wide range of backgrounds and races which for us was important and something that is lacking in the other schools in the area. A lovely mix of parents too - not all filthy rich and driving Chelsea Tractors!

[paragon]

Slightly off topic, but your own education and your own jobs will have more bearing on what your children end up doing than which school they go to.

[new mother]

Paragon, That is absolutely a matter of opinion. I disagree. Look at all the Cabinet Ministers of bygone years who had grammar school educations but were from very deprived backgrounds. The opportunity to give one's child a good education that enables him/her to go further than his/her parents is very important to a lot of people.

[paragon]

I agree it is probably a matter of opinion. I think there was an article in Freakeconomics about it which had some data to back it up - i'll try and find a link.

Neither of my parents went to Uni, but I did. Although my Dad has managed to squeeze into the middle classes after being the son of carpet weavers in Kiddiminster.

But i still think on balance that when parents go to Uni the kids are likely to go to Uni. And things like which Primary or Secondary School they go to won't make a material difference. I know that there is lost of angst amongst parents in this area, i guess i trying to temper it a bit.

[paragon]

The world famous Dayton Daily News gives a bit more info (though not a lot more!)

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/education/entries/2005/08/29/freak_info_you_1.html

[dulwichmum]

manicmouse Wrote:

I think

> that rather than not being as good it's just a lot

> less pushy and "exclusive". The kids come from a

> wide range of backgrounds and races which for us

> was important and something that is lacking in the

> other schools in the area. A lovely mix of

> parents too - not all filthy rich and driving

> Chelsea Tractors!

This comment is hilarious. None of the parents get to chose which schools their kids get offers for, it is simply the luck of the draw.

You are making so many assumptions and your comment screams of sour grapes. Get over yourself. We are all just parents trying to do the best for our kids.

[ClareC]

What exactly is the catchment area for Hamlet and Charter? I've ages yet before we have to think of schools but already concerned!!!

[dulwichmum]

Hi ClareC,

If you pop into the Hamlet and pick up an application form you can check the exact catchment. The line literally cuts streets in half and is quite complicated. However, the closer the better really, I have friends well inside the catchment that didn't get their kids in.

I am not sure about The Charter. Perhaps Southwark has a page on their website with the details?

[womanofdulwich]

With both schools all they can say is what the catchment was last year, it all depends on who is applying and where they live- plus all the siblings etc. one year you can get in the next year not. Or you can stay on a waiting list and hold out for a place later.

[sillywoman]

A bit alarmist DM? The catchment for the Hamlet is based on distance from the school and is affected by such things as how many siblings in any given years intake are allocated places etc.etc. So there's no definitive 'catchment' as such as it's a fluid thing, changing each year. Not sure where the "cuts streets in half" idea comes from.

Most people who want their kids to go there do get a place eventually, just maybe not in the first round of offers. The catchment in the 6 years mine have attended has been much larger than is often suggested on this forum, with kids from Forest Hill to West Dulwich and on down to Camberwell attending.

The Infants catchment is losely based on the parish boundary. You can apply for either a 'church' place, or a 'community' place. If you apply for a church place then you need to offer proof of the regular attendance of you and your child at your place of worship for the two years prior to your application. Regular meaning roughly fortnightly. If there are more application than places available then places are offered on a distance basis once the 'church' criteria has been met. If you apply for a 'community' place then it's based on distance from the school with siblings, special needs and cared for children having priority. However a lot of people don't apply as they imagine they won't get in when actually the catchment is quite large, certainly a lot larger than St J's & St C's is currently.

There always seems to e such a lot of 'ooh, you'll never get your kids in there' talk about these two schools. In my experience it's a bit of an urban myth, & if it stops people applying to these lovely schools & missing out on places for their kids then that would be a great shame.

[barrybrains]

sillywoman, is there any particular church you have to regularly attend, or can it be any local CofE church?

[bawdy-nan]

also the last set of figures issued by the governers showed that church places were under-applied for - rather putting paid to the idea that local parents are getting on their knees to avoid the fees (ooh I love Rev).

[new mother]

Dulwich mum, I am fascinated by the idea that school entry is the luck of the draw.

On the one hand, I agree it must be hard to differentiate among a group of average children aged 4. As we all know from meeting children, the very bright ones and the very slow ones stand out but the rest will be tricky to assess.

OTOH, it is clear that eg JAPPS and JAPS get particularly good academic results, compared with others in the area with presumably equally motivated parents, so it is either down to excellent teaching - maybe but I can personally testify that teaching and cost were inversely correlated in my day! - or good selection. Or perhaps another factor that I'm not taking into account? I woudl love to know.

Either way, good results make a school a good one to attend, if you can get over the single sex nature of eg JAPPS, which my husband and I are currently wrestling with.

[dulwichmum]

Dear Sillywoman,

My children are now 7 and 8. The year I wanted to apply for a community place at the Dulwich Village Infants (I believe that this is the school for the youngest children as opposed to The Hamlet) I went to the school and got the application form and found I was on the wrong side of the road and therefor outside the catchement area. This was my experience and I can only talk about my experience. My good friend lives on a road that I would consider to be close to the centre of the village, and that year, her daughter did not get a place at the school until the end of September, from the waiting list, as there was a big intake that year and her house was not as close as others. The child did get in eventually, but it was after the school year started. I have another friend who did not get her child in at all, and their address is Village too. Perhaps if she had an older sibling already there?

New Mother,

Everyone calls the school JAPS, not JAPPS. I realise that someone on here claimed otherwise recently,but just because someone is confident in their assertion it does not make them right. My daughter is currently at the school so I do actually know this for a fact. My daughter is doing well at the school, the teaching is terrific, the parents all motivated. My daughter was offered a place at every school she applied for and others in her nursery school were not. My daughter is bright, but not any brighter than plenty of other children that I know who did not get offered a place. I think that a lot of the great results that JAPS gets is down to the culture that there is at the school. The parents are all motivated and interested and encouraged to socialise and engage with the school at every opportunity.

Interestingly, many of the girls from my daughters nursery who were not offered a place early on, have joined the school in later years and are at the top of the class, so I think that indicates how difficult it is to assess a child for a school place at such a young age.

[sillywoman]

barrybrains Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> sillywoman, is there any particular church you

> have to regularly attend, or can it be any local

> CofE church?

Nah, any old CofE, actually I'm not even sure it has to be CofE - check, but I have a feeling it could be any faith?

DM, you may have been outside the Parish boundary, but you won't have been outside the 'catchment' for DVI as there isn't one.

[dulwichmum]

sillywoman Wrote:

> Nah, any old CofE, actually I'm not even sure it

> has to be CofE - check, but I have a feeling it

> could be any faith?

>

> DM, you may have been outside the Parish boundary,

> but you won't have been outside the 'catchment'

> for DVI as there isn't one.

You can go to the catholic church from what I remember - St Thomas Moore even, but then you have to justify to Fr O'Connor why you are not applying for St Anthonys.

It is coming back to me now, we were on a road split by the parish boundry (I got an application form with a map on the back from the school), but the rules were changing the year after we were looking for a school place for our first child, and there was speculation that you would be able to apply from anywhere if you attended church. I wonder if that happened.

We would not have had a chance of getting in that year by distance. My friends who live a stone's throw from the centre of the village had big problems as I said. That was probably 2005?

[sillywoman]

dulwichmum Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the rules were changing the year after we were

> looking for a school place for our first child,

> and there was speculation that you would be able

> to apply from anywhere if you attended church. I

> wonder if that happened.

yes it did.

>

> We would not have had a chance of getting in that

> year by distance. My friends who live a stone's

> throw from the centre of the village had big

> problems as I said. That was probably 2005?

Hmmm, probably depends year to year. We applied for a community place in the Sept 2008 entry & got in without problem on the first round. We live opposite ED Hospital - so some distance away.

[dulwichmum]

Yes, I have friends that live along there and they had no problem either.