Prep/junior school options for boys - some questions

[snowboarder]

I don't want to talk about the pros and cons of private schools at all. It's just all this state primary school allocations stress has me worried and am thinking need to at least look at all the other options, and see whether we need to start saving our pennies NOW. Anyway - it seems the private options are just as confusing - can anyone who has been through this confirm if the following is correct?

So - there are:

1. Pre prep schools like Herne Hill School and The Villa. They take children up to 7, and it's a case of getting your name down asap, yes? They don't cherry pick?

2. Dulwich College Prep School - which confusingly is not part of Dulwich College - and this is competitive entry?

3. Dulwich College has a junior section itself - but this is an early get your name down place?

4. Alleyns Junior School - competitive selection?

Is this right? Are there other options? Gah! With the early get your name down places it seems we would be a bit late whatever - babysb is 14 months and Dulwich College said they are onto a reserve list for 2013/4 entry!! I'm really not sure we could afford it without me selling my soul and working all the hours, no holidays etc, but feel it's worth considering the options...

[pebbles]

Hi SB

okedoke, it is indeed confusing

DCPS - as a school it goes from nursery - 13 and for boys you can go to nursery the Sept after they're 3 (I think this is right) ie my son is 3 on 8th Sept 2010 and if he goes will go Sept 2011 (girls however can go from 3??). It is competitive selection. I'm pretty sure that once you're in then you can continue up the school. Once you get to the Annexe (5-7) as so many boys go there from the Nursery then the number of places for other entries is really quite small) - something to think about?? My mother taught at the Annexe for 25 yrs before retiring and she couldn't be more positive about the teaching here.

Dulwich Collge - the nursery/primary part is called DUCKS and is situation just past the toll gate on the left. It is indeed first come first served. We put our sons name down when he was 3 months old wanting him to attend nursery from 3 however we were phoned at Easter and he only got afternoons or full day on a Friday (arvos just don't work with no.2) so turned it down but couldn't believe that having had his name down since 3months that there were no places for mornings (all taken by children who had been therefore from 1yr old etc i think). Again the reputation is fabulous. Although it is part of a bigger school aparently as it's on a different site it's not too daunting for smaller children.

Alleyns - don't know much about their entry system - pretty sure it's competitive like JAPS. Also have heard fabulous reports about it.

Herne Hill - first come first served. Again reputation is very good and if wanting a smaller school for your child apparently it rocks. The main problem i've heard however if you are wanting to continue on from 7 in the private sector you have to go through the whole competitive selection at 7 with potentially small numbers of places due to kids moving up from the schools nursery.

I'm pretty sure all this info is correct however if anyone knows differently please do let me know as i'd be interested as well.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[hoipolloi]

Hi

When we applied (for September 2009 start in reception) Herne Hill certainly did cherrypick - the children went in for an assessment and places were offered (or not) on the strength of that. We applied fairly late - they have a deadline (you can probably find it on the website) but it didn't matter when you applied as long as it was before that deadline expired. We decided it was not for us in the end, partly because of the hassle of going through the whole process again at age 7.

Good luck

[pebbles]

Thanks Hoipolloi - sorry for the misinformation

[legalalien]

pebbles' description fits with my understanding of the situation as well. Alleyns seems to me to be fiercely competitive - both because it covers secondary as well as primary, and because it is co-ed (families with boys and girls are often keen to send them to the same school). I think it is perceived as more academically selective than the other schools - but I have no real feel for this one way or the other.

[dulwichmum]

Pebbles is right, you are too late for DUCKS - Dulwich College.

JAPS takes boys up to the age of 7. The assessment to get in is very stressful, ditto with Alleyns. JAPS comes up as something like 5 in the Times League Table and Alleyns is around the 20 mark. These places on the league table can partially explain the schools' popularity.

I have to say that if you chose to go private, it may be worthwhile to put your son forward for at least four: DCPS, Alleyns, JAPS, Rosemead, Herne Hill or the Villa. When you are choosing, wait until you have offers to chose from. You are in plenty of time to apply for places for all of these. Go and take a look around.

I seem to remember something like 8 children being assessed for every Alleyns, JAPS and DCPS place, and that was about 4 years ago. There has been a big jump in the birth rate since then, so probably more pressure on places.

Don't be influenced by the league table places that some of the schools are so very proud of, and don't set your heart on one school until you have offers. DCPS doesn't feature in the league tables because they don't force the boys to endure SATS - and more power to them for that. Early years education should be about the journey, not about the acquisition of accolades for the schools. The primary concern of any of these schools should be the welfare of the child, not the reputation of the school. DCPS is a proper boys' school with no airs and graces about it.

Go on the tours of the schools, find out what the fees are. Think about whether you can handle the very long school holidays - childcare is a big issue if you must work full-time to pay the fees - the summer holidays alone are from 9th July to something like 2nd September (9 weeks as opposed to about 6 in state schools), and if you feel you can handle it, take the fees one year at a time. You can even pay by the month.

The state schools around Dulwich have very much improved recently. The school we were in the catchment for, when our children were due to start nursery, was on special measures - it is now shooting up the league tables. Having said that, if I had tinies to find school places for now, I would still chose DCPS - our son is a gentle and quiet boy and he is thriving there. He has the most lovely friends and everyone is very supportive.

If you chose to go private, the schools you apply to, will chose you or not. It makes my flesh crawl to think about the assessments we went through for my daughter.

[Mellors]

JAPS no longer take boys from this year (I had my son's name down and got a letter from them).

[dulwichmum]

That is a big shame.

[plimsoul]

wow that sounds as intense as the state primary process

[Ondine]

Mine went to the Villa and then on to thrive in state school from age 7 and I was very happy with that as a pathway. It's been a while but I doubt the Villa is super competitive as that's not their ethos.

[dulwichmum]

Do you know what Plimsoul, it absolutely is every bit as stressful as the state school application process.

I have often heard parents say that if they don't get a good state school around here, they "will just go private". Money can't buy places at these schools. The application process ensures that no-one gets to chose the school their child attends in London. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know the system. I have a very good friend who could not get her second son into the same school as her first because he did not perform on the day of the assessment, and no amount of pleading with the school would make them change their mind. My friend's younger son is now the brightest boy in his year at a different school. The school assessments are a barbaric waste of time. Ask any child psychologist or paediatrician if they could confidently assess a child using the methods employed in these "assessments" and they will laugh out loud.

[snowboarder]

Thanks for confirmation/info. Doesn't hurt to have a look I suppose. I don't know what the answer is re the assessments for some of the schools - especially if your child is very shy. We will see!

[Woodymama]

No-one seems to mention Oakfield Prep in these threads, which is one we're considering. Is this because it's not that good compared to others, should my alarm bells be ringing?!

[fionab]

My daughter is at Ducks, am very happy with it and it's a lovely setting - but she has to go in year 3 at the age of 7. The stress of getting into prep for year 3 isn't great and I am moving into Dulwich Village to get into the catchment for the Hamlet as back-up. Do what you can to get your kids into Alleyns at 4 - those are the most prized places. I don't know what they assess at four but I would make sure they know how to write their names, basic phonics and numbers to 10 I guess? Am sure someone here could tell you.

When I did my research it seemed that Oakfield is not generally perceived to be as good as the schools mentioned above, but I have heard very positive reports and being a bit detached from the hothousing that goes on for 7 plus entry elsewhere might not be such a bad thing.

And (just in case) don't worry about it being stuck up. Like you are working out, it's often cheaper to fork out the fees than the mortgage to get into a decent catchment. There are lots of nice, normal, hardworking parents who feel a bit forced into it all.

Oh yes, register your kids now, keep your options open. Our kids are lucky to have options I guess.

Good luck x

[minder]

OMG Fiona are you for real? Young children with all that stress? As for having Hamlet as a "back-up" my daughter has done really well there after starting in the middle of Year 4 and now is a high achiever for the school.

Even so, she will be going to The Charter School in September where her older brother and sister are. They have achieved and enjoyed their time there and my son is now in Edinburgh with The Charter, where they are experiencing university life.

[Rogue Apostrophe]

That might seem like a lot of stress to pile on a young child, but such is the nature of the private school system unfortunately. Competition is fierce to get a place at the school, so a 4 year old would have to be well prepared to pass the entrance test requirements.

[dulwichmum]

Hi FionaB,

I dont agree that it is often cheaper to pay school fees than a higher mortgage to move into the catchment area for the a good state school. I have two children, aged 7 and 8. So far, we have spent over 110k in cash on their school fees. On top of that are all manner of fees for music lessons, uniforms and school trips.

[littleEDfamily]

Yes, but DM, my rough maths suggests a 3 bed house in the Hamlets catchment would be at least ?300,000 more expensive than the equiv house in ED. And you are paying interest on that mortgage right from the start. At least with fees, it's pay as you go....

[womanofdulwich]

I always thought that if you bought in the catchment area, if you then sold your house you would get the money back - or better still moved out of London to somewhere you know has a good school-Kent being one of the most popular.

[littleEDfamily]

I suppose so, assuming you didn't drown in mortgage payments in the meantime (and they would give you one in the first place).

[sillywoman]

Err, you're wrong little EDfamily our 4/5 bedroom house & others in our street, firmly in the Hamlets catchment, has a current valuation of the same or less than many equivalent size/age houses in ED and Bellenden area. In some cases (Upland rd & round there) much less.

[littleEDfamily]

I didn't realise the catchment area for Hamlets extended that far. I was thinking it was just the Village. In that case, maybe it is worth trying to get closer to a better state school......is Hamlets the only one with a proper catchment area? Is there a reasonable chance that you may go through the bother and expense of moving only to find you don't get in at all (as that seems to be the biggest risk of the state school system in ED). Is Hamlets that much better to justify the hassle (and potential for it to all be in vain?)

[sillywoman]

Nope, nope and err, nope.

BTW it's a common misconception that you have to live in the Village to go to the Village schools. Most kids, my kids know don't live there. As witnessed by the village school kids trailing up the hill of Calton Avenue at 3.30pm whilst the kids who live in the village come down it from the private schools at the top.

[dulwichmum]

Lovely LittleEDfamily, I agree with sillywoman. And even if what you speculate with regard to house prices being 300k more for a house in the village, apart from inflation (which increases the school fees every year), private schools fees become more expensive as the children move up through the years. We will have spent far in excess of 300k on education for our two by the time they reach 18. A bigger mortgage may be a struggle, but at least you have the equity in your house at the end.

I am actually very happy with the decision we made. The schools are amazing.

[littleEDfamily]

For those of us without the means to have entered the property market until relatively recently and are in smaller houses or flats, the prospect of being able to live in a 4 or 5 bedroom house in East Dulwich or the Village is simply unrealistic.

It is far more affordable to remain in our mini houses with our manageable mortgages and then pay for private schools for one or two children at the maximum (or of course go to whatever state school the children are accepted into) than spend money upgrading to a house closer to a school like Hamlets (I suppose, we could go like for like, but that seems pointless considering the cost of moving, and I would need some convincing Hamlets was worth it).

Upgrading anywhere in the area is often not an option (a 4/5 bed house is just a ridiculous dream!). To make the leap from a (nice) 2 bed house to a (nice) 3 bed house in ED would in our case add ?180,000 to our mortgage - wham bam, plus interest accruing from day 1 - far more manageable to try to contain current housing costs and pay for private school (if not happy with the state school you are offered). If you don't have loads of children and leave a reasonable gap between them, you get s bit of a headstart with just one, and then it's a question of keeping fingers crossed that your careers go well and that your financial position improves as the children get older and school fees become more of a burden.

If you are one of the big winners of the property market boom, and bought in ED (or elsewhere) when the market was affordable, then I can see the benefits of using that advantageous position to get your kids into a better state school by moving. If not, I stand by theory that in a lot of cases, the financials on private school make more sense for certain families.