Fracas on the number 40 this morning.

[Doodles]

LostThePlot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Doodles Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No. People had a habit of launching themselves

> on

> > and off the Rout master.

>

> It's called looking after yourself and not blaming

> others for your own stupidity.

>

> > Of course, there is a cost...

> The money has already been wasted....

>

> About 4 years before the Routemasters were

> withdrawn a large number of them were fitted with

> more up to date engines (Cummins -IIRC) the idea

> being to give them a continued life in service

> until about 2015 when it would have to be

> withdrawn to meet Disability act cut off date for

> Public vehicles (2017) (Again - IIRC) At this

> time, and when electioneering Red Ken said "Only

> some ghastly dehumanised moron would want to get

> rid of the Routemaster." He got to power and

> killed them all. In the world of busses there are

> suspicions that there may have been some

> backhanded shennanegins about getting the Bendy

> Buses into the capital.

>

> On the disability side of things. Yes, they were

> not accessible, hence they were to be withdrawn to

> meet a deadline decreed,....Are Bendy Busses

> wheelchair friendly? Ask someone trying to get on

> one in Oxford street at 5pm...

>

> And also the Routemaster was less polluting than

> the busses that replaced it. Furthermore, in terms

> of more effective transport the Bendy busses do

> not match the carrying capacity of a Routemaster,

> when you consider the space they take up on the

> road.

Interesting post. I didn't know about the engine update etc. Or the projected shelf life. We've been coned, haven?t we?

[LostThePlot]

Frisco Wrote:

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> Compliance with DDA requirements and deadlines is

> only one reason why the RM was withdrawn from

> general service. I recall that assurances that

> they were to be withdrawn were given years years

> go at an Inquest, following someone being killed

> when jumping off the platform of a moving RM, in

> Oxford St.

Yes that tragically did happen. However it wasn't the first, or sadly the last time a bus has caused a death. Difference was that some made a decision to jump, and they made the wrong decision. Harsh statement I know, but correct.

As mentioned there was a refit programme, a lot of money spent (I meam millions) and within 4 years they were gone. Just seems a bit fishy that's all... does it not?

[Frisco]

I'm not really concerned whether your view appears harsh or not, I was only concerned to correct the erroneous impression given that the demise of the RM in general use was wholly due to the DDA. Rightly or wrongly, H&S played risk based role, and when things are deemed to be the cause of deaths they are very often altered, if only because of insurance industry pressures.

As I wrote, I was making the point about the H&S based contribution to the decision and I have no views on the 'fishy' apparent conspiracy theory you refer to, except to say it is almost certainly just that. The fact is that people's views aren't usually fixed, especially when new information and alternatives become available. Politicians can change their views too, and although the RM had become iconic, it wasn't ever really going to increase bus usage and didn't send out the message that London has a modern bus-based contribution to its mass transit system.

The RM still runs on the heritage routes used by tourists and, in my opinion, that's where it belongs.

[Marmora Man]

Frisco Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not really concerned whether your view appears

> harsh or not, I was only concerned to correct the

> erroneous impression given that the demise of the

> RM in general use was wholly due to the DDA.

> Rightly or wrongly, H&S played risk based role,

> and when things are deemed to be the cause of

> deaths they are very often altered, if only

> because of insurance industry pressures.

>

> As I wrote, I was making the point about the H&S

> based contribution to the decision and I have no

> views on the 'fishy' apparent conspiracy theory

> you refer to, except to say it is almost certainly

> just that. The fact is that people's views aren't

> usually fixed, especially when new information and

> alternatives become available. Politicians can

> change their views too, and although the RM had

> become iconic, it wasn't ever really going to

> increase bus usage and didn't send out the message

> that London has a modern bus-based contribution to

> its mass transit system.

>

> The RM still runs on the heritage routes used by

> tourists and, in my opinion, that's where it

> belongs.

In my view the essence of the Routemaster wasn't that it was iconic - it was that it worked so well.

1. It had a driver who simply drove - no responsbility for taking fares, contrlling customers, advising customers. Made for a more focussed role and performance - enhancing passenger safety, comfort and oher road users safety (partic cyclists).

2. The bus conductor could control passsengers, advise them and generally be a helping hand for all dissabled and elderly except wheelchair users.

3. It took up very little road space for the 77 passengers it carried (?? I seem to remember that as the max no. of passengers). Certainly when compared with the awful, dangerous bendy bus.

4. If it was stuck in traffic passengers could get on and off. The frustration of being held, locked in, 200 yards from destination when walking would get you there more quickly is impossible to explain in words.

A redesign to retain the good bits (including the jump on / jump off element) and improve DDA access would have been a much better option. I could envisage a design such that the old platform end being something that was hydraulically controlled with access to a wheelchair "parking space" so wheelchair users could get on / off.

Just because it's iconic 1950's design doesn't mean it won't work in 2007.

[Ko]

Doodles Wrote:

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> Had a very smooth ride on the 40 this morning.

> Walked up and thanked the driver. He seemed

> embarrassed but pleased.

Aren't you lovely! :))

[SeanMacGabhann]

Without wishing to sound like a RM fetisist, I can only echo every point Marmora Man makes in that last post.

I'm a Ken supporter (give or take) and remember his words before power about Routemasters - and one can oly be suspicious about the swiftness of the bendy bus introduction. I'm not anti-bendy bus by default - I have used many of them perfectly well, but as a model, the conducter/driver/freedom of the RM is nigh on impossible to beat

[Frisco]

"A redesign to retain the good bits (including the jump on / jump off element) and improve DDA access would have been a much better option. I could envisage a design such that the old platform end being something that was hydraulically controlled with access to a wheelchair "parking space" so wheelchair users could get on / off."

As far as I'm aware, I didn't address the other issues you raised so you I'm not sure what you're responding to, but some of what you claim as advantages wouldn't be acceptable in terms of H&S. As I said, when things lead or contribute to people's deaths they tend to be replaced.

Also, the RM couldn't have been successfully redesigned to make it DDA compliant, and if it could the cost would have prohibited it. But the main reason is the size of the bus, the internal step from the platform, the fact that the position of the internal wheels dictated the type of rear seating etc. etc. Plus, DDA compliance isn't just about wheelchair access, as they only actually account for about 8% of disabled people.

I'm not particularly a fan of bendy buses, but I do find them more attractive when faced with the arguments of the RM Luddites.

"Just because it's iconic 1950's design doesn't mean it won't work in 2007."

Obviously, your view is that the RM was suitable for the 21st century, but my equally valid view is that it wasn't.

[OutOfFocus]

The assumption always seems to be that Conductors ca only operate on Routemasters.

Why cant they operate modern buses?

[spadetownboy]

routemaster definately the bees knees,manys a time i stood at the end of barry road outside the clockhouse finishing off my pint before heading into the smoke on the 12.seeing it coming down the hill, i would sip my slops and then hop on because it always stopped at the junction. best seat was top deck left hand side right at the back level with the stairs just sit and watch the world go by. does anyone remember the little handle that wound the windows down.

[Frisco]

"The assumption always seems to be that Conductors ca only operate on Routemasters.

Why cant they operate modern buses?"

This is true, but my view is that while there may be a need for a second person on buses, they shouldn't necessarily be distracted by collecting fares and handling cash (which may even make them a target). I think it's far better that all buses become cashless through the wider use of Oyster etc, and that any second crew member undertakes an enforcement/security role.

I wonder if there's been any feasibility studies or cost/benefit analysis of this.

[Nero]

I loved the handle too. You could regulate your own temperature. Agree that the best seat was top-deck, back left seat. Lots of legroom. Like your own London Transport business class. Nero

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I loved watching people clinging on for dear life on the back of the routemaster, or trying to catch the pole and missing! Always brightened up my day!

Routemasters were nice, but if you have a baby in a buggie and shopping they were a pain in the @rse to try to board as you had to fold up your buggy, carry your baby and shopping, try to jam your buggie in the bit below the stairs which was only big enough for an umbrella, and then manouver bags and baby onto a seat without bashing people with your bags or baby.

Repeat in reverse to get off.

They were great if you were ablebodied and had no kids, but for everyone else, they were a pain.

Got to admit they did look nice tho.

[Bleep]

Since purchasing my bike I've now cut my journey time from Victoria to the Plough in half. So up yours, 5 Alive, 185!

[citizenED]

You great bunch of nostalgics! Yes, alright the RMs were a fantastic, iconic design but were simply not practical for all passengers. The world moves on.

More importantly the focus of this (and the No 12) thread is just how much the bus has become a second-class mode of transport and I, for one, think this is a great shame. For all the improvements made in the last few years, the bus lanes, the newer stock, the cheaper fares, Oyster, the increased no. of buses, etc a lot of people have negative experience of riding on the bus. Whatever this is down to - poor driving, rude passengers, overcrowding, litter, cost - it feels a shame because, in itself, a bus is not a negative thing. Ideally a journey on a bus should simply be seen as one option out of several ways to use the road - car, taxi, bike, bus. Each should seen as equal. For any journey down a bus route, the bus should be seen as the best option, ie quicker than a car, cheaper than a taxi and more comfortable than a bike. The fact that this isn't the case is a pity. The fact that some people never ride on a bus is a poor reflection on the service.

Solutions: make bus fares cheaper. Increase number of Bus lanes. Reintroduce conductors/passenger assistants. Clean the passenger areas twice a day. Optionally, make it illegal to overtake buses at bus stops.

citizen

[Al&Em]

How about making bus stops further apart - eg riding a 176 or a 185 down Dog Kennel Hill into East Dulwich, there is a stop at the top of the hill, one halfway down opposite Sainsburys, and one at the bottom by the station - all within sight of each other. Surely better to have to walk a few mins to get to a stop than have your bus once you're on it stopping before it even gets up to speed - that's why bus journeys take forever...

[SeanMacGabhann]

You'vetouched on a real sore point with me there Al&Em - and a very good example of the problem. By the time it stops again outside The Vale I'm close to .... well, annoyed. What's worse is sometimes people get on one stop and then get off 20 yards later... thanks for that, guys

[Jah Lush]

I use buses all the time but one thing I'd definitely like to help improve my journey is the banning of eating food/takeaways. I get fed up with the rotten stink of KFC/Burgers/chips and other food stuffs and the constant flow of litter on the floor where the rotten corpses of chicken bones and spare ribs lie in their half eaten heaps among a debris of bottles and cans, oh and while your at it playing music on telephones/get some earphones sonny so I can read my book in peace. Rant over.

[SeanMacGabhann]

"telephones/get some earphones sonny so I can read my book in (slightly more) peace"

fixed

;-)

But agreed also!

[Brendan]

You shouldn't need rules to stop people from eating, listening to music etc on the bus. These should just be things that people don't do out of respect for each other. Just proof that society is sick!

(ps. I'm not some right-wing extrmemist with a basement full of guns I promise. Just someone who doesn't want to sit on the remains of a happy meal when he takes the bus.)

[Jah Lush]

Brendan, banning the eating of food on buses like the smoking ban is probably the only way you can enforce it.

[Keef]

Totally agree with you Jah, I use buses every day too, and I hate it (especially when hungover) when some little git plays his/her music through some crappy tinny speaker, I'd generally rather them play it through a proper stereo!!! I makes me naucious, and I end up having to put my own headphones in just to block it all out!

Also agree about the food!

Also hate bus drivers who seem to enjoy making te bus lurch as much as posible!!!!!!!!

And why must they put the heating on in summer?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Grrr

:X

Soz if that's all been said already, but can#t be bothered to read the whole thread.

[James]

Deep-rooted problem unfortunately. Certain people are brought up to think that they have the right to do whatever they like & society has to put up & clear up after them. Am amazed David Cameron hasn't capitalized more on this. I hate the man but if he had two brain cells he would use this issue as a stick to beat Labour with.

[Jah Lush]

Good point there James. I am also surprised that Ken Livingstone, as someone who regularly uses public transport hasn't done the same.

[Doodles]

Yes, hate the noise of moronic, cr*p music from phones. Hate the stench of half eaten junk food; hate the greasy marks on my clothes from the grubby seats. Beginning to hate buses, and I used to love them. Shame.

[Doodles]

And, to make it worse, a bunch of kids spent the entire journey from the Plough to London Bridge preaching the gospel, telling me I was going to hell unless, blah, blah, blah.

I guess they were genuine and believed they are doing the right thing. But it raised my stress levels. On a better day I would have drawn breath and explained that you never change anyone?s mind if they feel bullied and hectored. But it wasn?t a better day.