Fracas on the number 40 this morning.

[MadWorld74]

But bus drivers don't earn that bad a wage. There are jobs out there that pay worse. And it's not National Service.

Since I've been in ED I have to say the amount of 'near crashes' has been alarmingly high. The drivers don't bother looking at you/or look at you so much they yell at you from their cab and demand you return to the front of the bus where they can again inspect your pass. I've seen bus drivers get into near fist fights with members of the public. I grew up in Brighton. You never had any trouble with buses there.

The worst time was on the old omnibus type Route Masters. The driver was so erratic I was flung off the back and into the street. On all fours in the middle of Oxford Circus with traffic hurtling towards me. Nice.

[SeanMacGabhann]

The 185 definitely always smells of sick - so much so that I'm convinced it's a build-issue with those bus-models. Some material is reacting badly to the engine heat.

As for bus drivers - can we refer to *Bobs* cock theory on another thread? Some are some aren't

The 40 came to a halt on Walworth Rd last week on the way in to work. One instinctively knows if it's engine failure or "trouble". this one was trouble. A guy gets on and barges upstairs without showing his pass and the driver took a stand - bus not moving until he pays. The guy who didn't pay kept shouting down "I don't care" until a combination of peer-pressure and the driver coming upstairs made him eventually give up and get off. Fair play to the driver but I bet lot's of people were hacked off at him for making them late

[mockney piers]

Mrs mockers used to work for surface in TfL. If there's any sort of trouble the drivers are told to stop the bus, hit the button and wait for the transport police, that's policy. Looks like the driver in this case hit the wrong sort of button entirely however.

I was on the 484 the other day, and the bus driver was a fantastic bloke, greying dreads, probably late 40s early 50s. He kept us all entertained with amusing tales, but also complained that the latest crop of drivers didn't really give a s**t about the job and were very unprofessional in his opinion.

That may have been a kids these days rant, but he seemed a pretty canny guy to me, and that wasn't my impression.

Agree with Elfy that a culture of targets isn't pertinent to everything and in many cases can be counter-productive.

[James]

Sorry but I don't have much sympathy for them. Yes it must be tough and boring but so what? Me and most of my friends work in creative industries where we do exceptionally long hours for little pay. I have never smashed a window in a rage and I take pride in my job! It seems to me too many people want to grab everything they can get and give nothing in return. In other parts of the world people work for much less pay in much worse conditions, yet they do their job properly. Why can't these drivers?

[Brendan]

James the problem is the degradation of our society that has come about from us trying misguidedly to improve it. It has all gone to hell-inna-hand-basket and I for one intend to start a new country in the old railway tunnel in the woods. I baggsies King by the way.

[SeanMacGabhann]

James - there is some truth in what you say.

However (with my cheeky devil's advocate hat on!) you also say you "work in creative industries where we do exceptionally long hours for little pay. I have never smashed a window in a rage and I take pride in my job"

Other friends in the same industry and the bars that cater to the industry don't always have the kindest things to say about the people there either - smashing windows may not happen but a lot of abuse does..

[mockney piers]

Agreed, society has gone very "it's all about me". But in this case I think the guy was well with in his rights to complain about bad driving, especially if his kid got hurt.

James you may well work hard for little pay, but you don't spend the whole day with people abusing you, shouting at you, crazies hanging around you, kids screaming about your lack of respeck etc. Personally they do have my sympathy and respect, especially those who keep their chin up, are helpful and polite, must be hard to maintain that;tough job. But as the bob* adage goes, there are c**ks too.

I bet you have comfy cushions strewn around your office and table football ;-)

*another forum neologism perhaps?

*bob*'s law: The rule which governs the ratios in a particular culture, subculture, genus or class of c**ks to non-c**ks

[Doodles]

Yup, but creative industries don?t usually involve pissed-up arrogant a-holes who don?t want to pay. Although, actually, thinking about my time as an account handler a long, long time ago....?.

[lozzyloz]

Do you mean the 12yr old girl hand stitching the sole on the cool trainers your Creative Director bought?

[SeanMacGabhann]

To be fair on this point, it's not hard to go to another country, even a busy metropolis with full buses, and encounter a more chilled bus-driving culture - which is what I believe James had in mind

We all know how cheap clothes arrive on these shores but surely a point for another debate? (sorry loz, it's just these things do kick off!)

[Marmora Man]

Having been a bus user for several years (Maggie Thatcher would be appalled!) I too have seen a major deterioration in quality of driving. I can handle miserable, monosyllabic drivers - as many posts have identified it's probably not the most uplifting of jobs these days. I now most frequently use the 63 / 363 and 12.

However, I fail to understand why every bus stop seems to surprise the driver so much - such that they are racing along and then, ooops it a bus stop - stamp on brakes and hurl 70% of passengers toward front window. Within my family a grandparent was a London Transport bus driver - his pride was to provide a calm and steady pace that kept him and his bus on time and up with the timetable.

It may be that timetable targets are set at an unrealistic level and they have to hit a higher speed of travel than is realistically possible - so may not all be the drivers fault - but passengers do suffer.

[lozzyloz]

Fair point Sean however try getting a nice cushy bus ride in most of the developing world and compare their horrific safety record with ours. I've witnessed some tragic public transport accidents that make me appreciate our system despite some of its flaws.

[weloveforesthillroad]

I get on the number 12 every morning and afternoon up to piccadilly circus and am getting really frustrated with the amount of times we have to get off early and then people fight you for seats on the next packed on that comes along.

The bus starts by saying going to oxford circus or dulwich library but then literally every second journey i take it stops early either in trafalgar square on the way in or camberwell green or peckham on the way home!

I have been told when I complained to the bus service that this is either due to driver timings for breaks or timetable slots. As far as I can tell this journey (when completed) take approx 1 hour end to end so why do they not take this into account when working out the timetable!!??

I have also got on this bus in the evenings and been dumped in peckham arounnd the corner from morrisons even at midnight with no warning! I dont think this is very fair when i have paid to to where it says when i first get on!

I would change from this bus but its the only direct route for me to get to work!

Is it just me or is anyone else getting fed up of this??

[SeanMacGabhann]

Fair point back at you loz - wasn't even trying to defend that aspect of things!

And I like your point about appreciating our system despite it's flaws. I have seen some shocking incidents over the years but by and large I wouldn't swap it for anything. I gave up on suburban trains long ago, and now get off the bus at E&C before traffic gets too thick in town and walk the rest of the way -

I've been using the ED buses for 6 years now and wouldn't say they have deteriorated in that time - if anything they have got better

[SeanMacGabhann]

hey lover of forest hill road - you made it to this thread too. I still agree with you ;-)

[weloveforesthillroad]

glad to hear it!

and you know what the terrible thing is, I am off to get that hideous number 12 right now-everyone fingers crossed for me I get all the way home please!!

[Ko]

I was brought up outside London in a town where it was the norm to say thank you to the driver when getting off. I still see this happen in various towns and it is heartening to see the children doing this too. Within London, I am always surprised at how few people say thank you to the driver.

Fair enough, getting off some buses these days does not involve passing the driver on your way out. On other buses like the P13 or if you get off at the front door of a bendy-bus, many people still do not say thank you.

Even when you get on a bus and the driver checks your travelcard, I think you should say thanks for this because he is providing a service.

Yes, some drivers do drive too fast when pulling out and they need to take more care to prevent accidents happening, especially to the passengers who have just got on - I'm sure it can be scary for many, including the elderly, those with children and the disabled. Today's incident sounds awful.

I think that passengers should also be more polite to drivers too. Whenever I have had to ask a driver for advice about where to get off when I do not know where I am going, they are almost always lovely and call out my stop when we get there. I think that if they got shown a bit more appreciation, it would help them take more pride in their jobs. Although there is no excuse for the accident with the child today or the subsequent behaviour.

[JoeChuff]

the 12 stopping early thing is really starting to irritate me as well, just as a matter of principle (my office is about the same distance from traf sq and picc circus). it used to be once a week that they would suddenly announce the change, now it is literally 3 out of 5 days. I think we should start loudly booing them every time they make that announcement - not starting an individual argument with the driver, as it's not his fault, just a brief burst of booing.

[Frisco]

"Fair enough, getting off some buses these days does not involve passing the driver on your way out. On other buses like the P13 or if you get off at the front door of a bendy-bus, many people still do not say thank you."

I would always be polite to drivers and say thank you if I got off when passing them, but not if met with the aggressive glaring and no response when I got on.

However, I don't buses these days with the exception of one quite short journey with a friend about a month ago from Wimbledon town hall (or Tesco as it is now) to the tennis ground. At Wimbledon Village a young woman with a child attempted to get on because the bus in front had been terminated and she'd paid to go to Southfields. The driver was very unhelpful and wanted her to pay again. She didn't see why she had to but she was doing so anyway. She asked for his number, presumably so she could report him for his unhelpful attitude. He turned off the engine and refused to move the bus until she and the child got off. The driver's behaviour was appalling, and this was my only experience of travelling on a bus for about three years. However, as a driver, it's not my only experience of aggressive and unskilled bus drivers.

[James]

Loz, what terrible assumptions you make! I am assuming you have never bought anything unless it was handmade by well-fed East Dulwich locals. It's amazing how it's fine and pc to stereotype about middle-class creative people but you're not allowed to criticise a "poor working class bus driver" who is violent, incompetent and being paid a decent wage thanks very much!

And I must say, some people in the creative industries are of course tossers, but I work pretty hard and conscientiously so I have little sympathy with those who don't. Unlike bus drivers, jobs in our industry are massively in demand. Meaning more is demanded of us, and if we don't deliver, we're out of the door!

And on the point about the terrible safety abroad, yes. But that's not what we're talking about.

[lozzyloz]

James remind me what the assumption was again? For the record I spent over 20 years in the ad biz working from the despatch dept upwards so I have much experience with middle-class creative types (are you?) but being essentially from a working class background probably empathise more with bus drivers, though not the particular one in question. I don't think I've ever bought clothes in East Dulwich, though I did see a TU T-shirt that caught my eye in Sainsburys the other day.

Being a creative and driving a bus have more in common than you'd think at first:

Both spend the day going round in circles

Both get crapped on by clients on a regular basis

Both stop and start all day long

One dreams of Cannes the other dreams of a can or two at the end of the day.

[LuvPeckham]

Wow

Is it true - Do bus drivers really dream of Cannes ??? (assumption based on knowing the drinking habits of the creative industry)

[Brendan]

Jesus Christ!* How did bitching about shit bus drivers turn into a class war?

*Sorry guv.

[Doodles]

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."

The Communist Manifesto (1848)

And if that doesn't get us sent to the lounge...

[Brendan]

Very eurocentric statement doodles. Does it apply to a city as "international" as London?

Dam I got roped in.

loooonge........