Boots don't give advantage points for formula...

[Belle]

Was really taken aback to see a friend's Facebook status saying she'd just found out Boots won't give out advanatage points for formula as they don't want to be seen to encourage bottle feeding. Can't quite believe it - seems almost patronising and v extreme! I don't have an advantage card, and when we bought formula it was from the supermarket so wouldn't have affected me but just think it's a really weird stance to take. Not trying to start a formula vs bf thread, please no, but has anyone come across this kind of thing before? I know that formula makers have to adhere to certain things eg not claiming it's better than breast milk, which is fair enough - but a company saying they won't reward you for something you've bought because they don't approve of how you're feeding your baby seems crazy!

[Fuschia]

I believe promotions linked to formula are not legal.

[Fuschia]

The World Health Organisation Code on Breastfeeding states that formula is not allowed to be advertised directly to the public, samples can't be offered and no price promotions including discounts / points are permitted.

[Lochie]

Yes this has happened to me before at Sainsburys - no to Nectar points on formula :-(

Surely if they are going to take that stance with formula they should do the same with alcohol too (not that I would EVER advocate that!!!)

[Saila]

I also found out supermarkets dont do promotions (reductions or bogoff etc) .....????

because breast milk / formula price wars really influence a mother's decision???

last i looked breast milk was free so i'm not sure why woman would chose formula because it was cheaper...

... makes me sad too - i feel vilified for 'failing' to bf cos of double mastitis/baby dehydration and thrush

edit to say - interesting point on WHO - makes more sense now

[Fuschia]

The Infant Formula and Follow-on Formula Regulations 1995

Restrictions on promotion of infant formulae

19. No person shall at any place where any infant formula is sold by retail-

(a) advertise any infant formula;

(b) make any special display of an infant formula designed to promote sales;

© give away-

(i) any infant formula as a free sample; or

(ii) any coupon which may be used to purchase an infant formula at a discount;

(d) promote the sale of an infant formula by means of premiums, special sales, loss- leaders or tie-in sales; or

(e) undertake any other promotional activity to induce the sale of an infant formula.

20. No manufacturer or distributor of any infant formula shall provide for promotional purposes any infant formula free or at a reduced or discounted price, or any gift designed to promote the sale of an infant formula, to-

(a) the general public;

(b) pregnant women;

© mothers; or

(d) members of the families of persons mentioned

I don't think any of this is designed to make women feel bad if they're not bf.

But the formula companies and their million pound advertising budgets don't really need any more help!

[barrybrains]

That's an interesting post, Fuschia. I always wondered why formula is never included in BOGOF or other promotions.

[Belle]

Yep...just seems like they're penalising the wrong person in this case - the end user.

[Lochie]

I just went on the SMA website and there is a very stern disclaimer before you even get to the website www.smanutrition.co.uk

Talk about making you feel bad....I agree Saila it is so hard if you physically can't breastfeed, it makes you feel like choosing formula means you are putting your child last. I remember reading an interesting article in the new year though about formula being as good as breast milk (soz Belle not trying to start a b milk v. form debate, I'm just always interested in the way this is handled by the health profession...)

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice-clinical-research/clinical-subjects/midwifery/baby-formula-as-good-as-breast-milk-claims-study/5010121.article

[sillywoman]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"

Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Belle]

I'm not so bothered about feeling inferior, just cross to be honest sillywoman! I get that formula companies are the big baddies etc etc but do sometimes find the WHO and other guidelines a bit patronising to the average consumer. I wouldn't have chosen formula on the basis that there was a BOGOF at Dog Kennel Hill Sainsbury's, I chose it because it worked for all of us.

Lochie - have seen those disclaimers, they make me laugh for the reason above - it wasn't going to change my mind was it?

[Fuschia]

Lochie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

I remember reading an

> interesting article in the new year though about

> formula being as good as breast milk (soz Belle

> not trying to start a b milk v. form debate, I'm

> just always interested in the way this is handled

> by the health profession...)

> http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice-clini

> cal-research/clinical-subjects/midwifery/baby-form

> ula-as-good-as-breast-milk-claims-study/5010121.ar

> ticle

Not wanting to start a debate either, but if you read this follow up, it rather pooh poohs the basis of that research (a retrospective study into a couple oo hundred women)

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/behind-the-headlines-archive/hormones-and-breastfeeding/5010203.article

"Based on this one small cohort study, the claims that breast milk is of no benefit to health are unfounded. The study did not investigate whether breastfed babies were healthier or not, but looked only at levels of their mother?s hormones during pregnancy and their breastfeeding after giving birth."

The study really doesn't provide the evidence for the many press reports I have seen that make much of the iddea that there is no benefit to breastfeeding.. I don't know WHY the media always jump on things like this?

[GinaG3]

This is indeed correct. I worked for boots for a few years and they are no way against bottle feeding. They sell many bottle feeding products as well as breastfeeding products. The code on advertising etc for formula is very strict. Any store seen to be breeching WHO code can incur very heavy penalties.

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The World Health Organisation Code on

> Breastfeeding states that formula is not allowed

> to be advertised directly to the public, samples

> can't be offered and no price promotions including

> discounts / points are permitted.

[Belle]

I just find it quite a crazy rule to be honest, and think it's taking the 'don't promote formula' idea to an unnecessary extreme.

Lochie - you make a good point about alcohol - I don't use a loyalty card so don't know, but does booze get you points?

[GinaG3]

Yes it does...

[Belle]

Oh dear...that just doesn't make sense, when there are warnings all over alcohol packaging and it actively damages health - whereas formula, wherever you stand on the baby feeding debate, is not considered a harmful substance. Oh well - a relatively minor issue I realise, but it's annoyed me now!

[GinaG3]

In the eyes of health organisations, its a flip side breastfeeding should be promoted, formula shouldn't. Alcohol can be advertised for public consumption (with warnings), drugs cant (point blank). Everyone's view lay divided on such topics...

Edited to include: As of late, more and more health professionals are coming forward to ask governments for a ban on loyalty points awarded on alcohol purchases.

[apenn]

Please bear in mind that the origin of such guidance is based on previous very bad behaviour by formula manufacturers, e.g. promotion of formula as better than breastmilk, especially in poor communities. Nestle is an infamous perpetrator of this in poor countries and motivated many breastmilk - action campaigns. Also, bear in mind that there was a time when breastfeeding was actively discouraged by doctors and women were given injections to dry up their milk and go straight to forumula. I'm not making this up - my grandmother did this.

The codes and subsequent regulations are meant to protect vulnerable groups from misleading information, not to stop people who have made informed choices from getting BOGOF's on formula! I think the mother's in the ED Forum community are quite lucky to be so well informed and make the best choices for them and their babies, be it breastmilk, forumula, or a combination of both. You wouldn't think it from our community here, but according to the NCT, the UK has one of the lowest breastfeeding rates in Europe. In the States the rates are dismal. I say this not because I think people who make informed choices that include formula are in any way inferior, but because I think there many women who do not have access to good information and don't actually make informed choices. Again, I will site a family example. My sister (lives in the US and has a graduate degree in social work) thought that some people need to give their babies formula because some babies don't like the taste of breastmilk.

Sorry to wax on about this, but I think that the WHO code and national regulations are actually quite important. It is annoying that you don't get the points since I'm sure that quite a lot of money is spent on formula, but the reasons behind it really aren't an affront to people who purchase forumula.

-A

[Belle]

No , I do see that Apenn - I guess what annoys me is when the lines get blurred - ie the campaigns you mention stop being about making sure the formula companies play by the rules and behave responsibly, and start being about bashing anything to do with formula/bottle feeding in an almost fanatical way. Recently there were complaints because a packet of Tesco nappies featured a woman bottle-feeding. I just don't really get why it matters (apart from anything, who's to say what's in the bottle!). But I do get the point you're making re WHO.

[new mother]

THis has enaraged me for a while - it's completely ludicrous for a perfectly legal product to be made into a second class "citizen" as it were...

follow on milk is allowed to be advertised etc I believe...

[Fuschia]

new mother Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> follow on milk is allowed to be advertised etc I

> believe...

Yes, but that's a bit of a loophole.. and follow on milk and toddler milk only appeared in recent years, precisely to get round the advertising ban... and even then there has been a lot of controversy about the content of some of the ads, ending in the ASA requiring the end of misleading claims.

It's all such a sensitive subject, but it does stick in my craw to see these huge multinationals bleating on about how hard done by they are, when they are massive machines seeking to convince us we need their products, literally from the cradle to the grave... I don't even really object to the formula ads particularly, but the adverts aimed at children and the awful diet of sweet drinks, cereals and disney branded rubbish they wnat to foist on children.. no wonder obesity is such a growing problem and the children of today will be the first generation with a shorter life expectancy that their parents.

Scary. That's why I dislike these huge companies. They have no morals or scruples. Profit is their only concern.

[Belle]

I have to admit even as a formula consumer I hate those aptamil ads 'breast is best...but if you DO decide to move on from breastfeeding your child'...blah blah. Also you know the one with a series of crazed babies giggling, can't remember the strapline but it's along the lines of, isn't this a normal well-adjusted child? Er well actually if my child had a chuckle like that it would drive me mad...

As ever I suppose it's just not black and white. Being supportive of formula feeding doesn't make you anti breast feeding and certainly doesn't mean you think the big formula companies are saints. having said that I'm pretty happy that there are people out there making formula (my mum was bottle fed with cow's milk - from a special herd which was used specifically for babies, can you imagine?! ALthough she's one of the healthiest people I know...)

[new mother]

Problem with forumula in poor countries is that mothers don't have easy access to sterile water.

THat doesn't apply in the western world.

Fuschia, I do agree with you re the ethics of selling dubious products to people - eg Philip Morris cigarettes to the CHinese market as an obvious example. I also think that we are unaware of how much of an agenda Govt has in terms of cost cutting and following politicised objectives such as the whole bf campaign. One could argue it save them money in welfare payments as bm is free. However, it also keeps mum at home, under State control and unable to work. (the vast majority of jobs realsitically cannot have women expressing.)

It isn't clear cut who is really using whom once you start to think about it.

[prm]

That seems really unfair...I believe most women would prefer to breastfeed but some are unable to. How are they supposed to feed their babies? Or if they can't afford the luxury of taking a long maternity leave and have to go back to work... It seems like penalising them for a necessity or even if it is a personal choice for whatever the reason... Most people don't make this choice lightly and obviously breast milk is cheaper so I don't think anyone is going to feel incentivised to take up formula to save money.

[apenn]

I think that is a bit of conspiracy theory New Mother! The only money-saving agenda is the saving in long - term health care costs associated with breast-fed babies. The literature supplied to employers informing them of their legal obligations to pregant women and mothers the point is made that parents of breastfed children have less absenteeism due to caring for sick children.* Employers are legally obliged to provide facilities for brestfeeding mothers to express, and maternity leave laws ensure that women can come back to work. Employers who deny these rights should be challenged - the laws are on a mothers' side - but I don't think it's fair to blame the government.

*PLEASE don't bombard me with posts saying that I'm accusing mothers who use formula of making their kids sick or any related nonsense. To be frank, I find all of the overly defensive posts about formula on here mundane. I cannot ever recall seeing a post where a breastfeeding mother accused a mother using formula of being a bad mother or failing in any way. I think Sillywoman's Eleanor Roosevelt quote is quite poignant.

OK. I'll stop boring people now. This is my last post on the matter.

-A