Will he EVER sleep? Or am I just a bit rubbish at all this? (Reassurance needed!)

[poppy]

So sorry to start yet another sleep thread bit I'm hoping for a bit of moral support and reassurance rather than advice really. My son is five and a half months old, and has always been a terrible sleeper. On a typical night he'll wake three or four times, and if he needs a feed he's especially difficult to resettle afterwards and I'm lucky to be back in bed within the hour.

In the last month I thought we'd turned a corner, as on many nights he was waking at 11ish for a feed and then at 3 or even 4 for another feed, and that was it. But now he seems to have reverted to his old ways for no discernible reason. Last night he was up at 1.20, 3 and then 5. I know he shouldn't really need a feed in the middle of the night now but he seems genuinely hungry and impossible to resettle without it.

My health visitor just keeps telling me I need to teach him to settle to sleep on his own. I know she's right but I just can't seem to be able to - know matter how sleepy he is when I put him down, he wakes up and starts grinning (cute but infuriating in equal measure) and no amount of shush-bloody-patting seems to help!! So I've got myself into a very bad habit of holding him while he falls asleep.

We've got a good routine and he naps well, he's started on solids and I feel as though I've tried everything under the sun bar controlled crying (which I think he's too young for) yet it feels as though nothing helps. This morning I've been stressing about the fact that he's almost six months old now and things should be better than this. I am just feeling in slight despair of things ever improving and I'm finding it very hard not to feel that I've gone very wrong somewhere along the line, and this morning it is making me very weepy (again). As I say, I'm not really looking for advice as there has been a lot of helpful advice on here already, but it would be very comforting to know if there are other mothers who have been through this and come out the other side, sanity intact!

Edited to remove frustrated use of swear word from title of thread ;-)

[sanity girl]

Hi Poppy, I do sympathise, my daughter has never been a good sleeper. I did try controlled crying once or twice when she was 6 months or so but she just went on and on and so I gave up. My solution to the problem long term was to let her come in bed with us, to minimize the disruption when she did wake to feed. Things got better when I stopped breastfeeding when she was 16 months, and even better when I moved her into a proper bed (rather than cot) when she was 2, as it was easier to get her off to sleep without having to hold her. Now she is 3 and some nights she sleeps through, some nights she still comes into bed with us, but those nights of really broken sleep are a distant memory. Good news that your little one is a good napper though - console yourself with that, and maybe try to catch up on sleep when he naps, if you can? x

[snowboarder]

I am coming out I think/hope...! I'm not going to be boring and have written enough about our various sleep dilemmas... but I searched for all kinds of 'reasons' why my baby wasn't sleeping - solids didn't change anything, cranial osteopath didn't change anything, homeopatic remedies (desperate) didn't change anything. The problem it turned out, not surprisingly, was us and the whole feeding/rocking to sleep scenario. I was told a couple of times was that I needed to be ready for things to change. I now see that although I felt SO tired and awful, I wasn't really prepared to change what I did and the way I responded to my baby for a long time. As you say there are so many books etc and loads of advice on here - I never really managed to make any sense of them on my own, and in the end we got some professional help.

Good luck....

[snowboarder]

ps - saw this recently and thought sounded quite interesting....not read in detail though...

http://www.busylittleones.co.uk/index.php?p=article_sleep_1

[plimsoul]

it took 2 years for mine to start sleeping through, you are not going mad!

[EDZ]

ok, I am going to get some flack for this, but my solution (and this was only once she was past 6 months and I knew she was not hungry because she would wake up in the morning not hungry) was to get up and turn the fan on and go back to bed. However, she had different cries and sometimes she would be crying hysterically for 10 minutes and then I knew I had to get up and settle her. But otherwise it would be this low winge or a very sudden and hysterical cry that lasted less than 5 minutes (I used to run to these until I realised a few times when I wasn't fast enough that she stopped just as I got to her door, so afterwards I always waited to see if she would drop off). After a few weeks of the "fan" or my ignoring her she learnt to settle herself pretty quickly. For some reason the white noise of the fan brought my stress level down (I couldn't just stay outside her door listening to her cry), but the fan and lying half awake to see if she was still crying seemed to work for both of us.

But honestly every baby is different and every parent is differnt. The good news is that it doesn't last for ever.

[marscapone]

My son was a pretty bad sleeper too (finally slept through at about 18 months). But now (aged 4) he is a great sleeper. He often sleeps til about 7 or 8 allowing us a bit of a lie-in compared to other parents. But the main thing is that he's not scared about going to sleep and actually enjoys sleep and I put that down to us reassuring him and probably pandering a bit to him when he was younger. At least I like to take some credit for all teh hard times we went through...

Now with number two (now 9 months and waking twice on a good night - and fed each time even though I know we shouldn't), the main difference is that I try not to worry about such things. Of course I always do worry, but I have to remind myself that all the things I worried about the first time round (will he ever drink water, when will he ever get to sleep without a dummy etc) resolved themselves when he was good and ready, nothing to do with my timetable. So please be reassured it will end, you will sleep again and it probably won't be too far away (and I hope the same goes for me too...)

[apenn]

Poppy,

I don't know if I would really characterise your baby as a "bad" sleeper. There seem to be all these ideas out there that your baby should be feeding only once at night by a certain stage, sleeping "through" at another . . . (And I think it's important to note that when most people refer to sleeping "thorugh" they're really talking about the period between about 11PM - 5AM.) All babies are different and from what I've heard (and based on the posts above), I sounds like your baby falls into the range of - perfectly normal!

My son is currently 9 months old. When he was 6 months I started to worry because he only fell asleep at the breast or when rocked. My mom said I needed to get him off those habits. I started to try different methods to get him to sleep on his own because I felt I "should." They all cause all of us to get less sleep, so I gave in and decided to just do whatever seemed to settle him the fastest - and that usually meant a comfort feed.

Now that he's older he still wakes up a few times in the night, but I don't usually have to feed him each time to resettle him. Sometimes he still needs some rocking. I'm not bothered that he still wakes or feeds because he's settling back down and I still feel I get enough sleep (or at least - I would if I went to bed earlier and didn't stay up to watch bad TV!).

Anyway, this method might not work for you, but what I'm trying to say is don't worry too much about what you think you should be doing because of books, health visitors, and even friends. Do what works for you, your baby, and your situation, and whatever gets you all the most sleep. Things will fall into place and evolve, and you will develop different strategies to deal with all the changing patters and habits - and his sleep habits will continue to change! I just keep reminding myself - he's not going to be 15 years old and still need a feed at night!

I hope that's the kind of reassurance you were looking for!

Best wishes,

-A

[crystal7]

Lots of sympathy poppy! Like snowboarder i think/hope we've left most of the very broken nights behind us but it's taken 15 months! My daughter fed 3 times a night until she was about 9 months. Always seemed hungry and it was the only way to settle her. Thing began to improve as she got older and wasnt bothered about night feeds by 13months. She now sleeps 7ish until 5 50% of the week. Still comes in with us the other nights. Think what you do depends on how tired you are and what you feel comfortable with. I mostly felt ok and am a real wimp so would never try cc. Not much use am i but wanted to reassure you it's definitely normal more so than you think! Good luck!

[poppy]

Thank you all for your kind replies! I do feel reassured that I am not the only one to struggle with sleep deprivation along with nagging guilt that perhaps I'm getting it all wrong. Snowboarder, I think I might be in the same boat - albeit several months behind you- in that I need to be ready for things to change because I suspect deep down I could push back his middle of the night feed if only I could face walking the floors with him for a little while each night, and be persistent with it. But I can't - yet! But I do feel reassured that perhaps it's not so bad to feed him/rock him/bring him into our bed given that that's what he needs right now and also I need it too for the time being just to stay a little bit sane. I've just been feeling bad about it since being criticised by a (well-meaning I suppose) in-law last week for 'making a rod for my own back'. Good to know that many of you have small children who are now sleeping much better despite all these rods we've apparently been making - thank you!

[crystal7]

Lots of sympathy poppy! Like snowboarder i think/hope we've left most of the very broken nights behind us but it's taken 15 months! My daughter fed 3 times a night until she was about 9 months. Always seemed hungry and it was the only way to settle her. Thing began to improve as she got older and wasnt bothered about night feeds by 13months. She now sleeps 7ish until 5 50% of the week. Still comes in with us the other nights. Think what you do depends on how tired you are and what you feel comfortable with. I mostly felt ok and am a real wimp so would never try cc. Not much use am i but wanted to reassure you it's definitely normal more so than you think! Good luck!

[poppy]

hank you all for your kind replies! I do feel reassured that I am not the only one to struggle with sleep deprivation along with nagging guilt that perhaps I'm getting it all wrong. Snowboarder, I think I might be in the same boat - albeit several months behind you- in that I need to be ready for things to change because I suspect deep down I could push back his middle of the night feed if only I could face walking the floors with him for a little while each night, and be persistent with it. But I can't - yet! But I do feel reassured that perhaps it's not so bad to feed him/rock him/bring him into our bed given that that's what he needs right now and also I need it too for the time being just to stay a little bit sane. I've just been feeling bad about it since being criticised by a (well-meaning I suppose) in-law last week for 'making a rod for my own back'. Good to know that many of you have small children who are now sleeping much better despite all these rods we've apparently been making - thank you!

[alieh]

Oh yes, this was a very very bad age for sleep for us. Not sure if it coincides with starting solids, and they get tummy ache as their digestive system learns to cope? Or maybe just that they're becoming more aware and therefore more difficult to settle when they do wake. Also teeth often start to make an appearance at this stage, which can really mess with sleep.

Agree that all of the "rods" fall away at some point. All you can do is survive somehow in the meantime!

[Ruth_Baldock]

:( it is utterly relentless isn't it? I feel the same as you do right now, seb is on 3 meals a day and is still waking in the middle of the night. It's a vicious circle of me being too sleep deprived to actually tackle the problem really. We had turned a massive corner, he started going from 8-7am but within a week was back to waking every 1.5 hours. Grim. I just keep telling myself that he will sleep through and I won't die but on days like today ( I got three hours sleep last night) I feel utterly miserable!

P.s. Sorry I didn't get back to you re: meeting up today but last night was horrendous and I could barely get either me or seb dressed and fed today!

[Fuschia]

It's a bit of a myth that if you follow this 3 point plan and this 5 point strategy etc etc your baby will sleep through at early age.. goes against the whole evolution of the human race, fast development of the brain, easily digested human milk, blah blah.

I can really recommend Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland (the library has it) as an antidote to the 'baby manuals' and might reassure you your baby is perfectly normal.

[poppy]

Oh Ruth, 3 hours, poor you! No worries at all about today, sounds as though we were both feeling a bit miserable this morning. Hope Seb goes back to better sleeping very soon.

Thanks Fuschia for the book recommendation - I will search it out. Those manuals do make me feel as though I've been doing it all wrong and I have found it hard to accept that doing X and Y won't necessarily lead to Z! Sounds as though that book might be helpful in keeping a sense of perspective.

Fingers crossed for a better night tonight all round!

[Fuschia]

What Mothers Do by Naomi Stadlen is another great book to help you adjust to the whole motherhood thing.. the library has that too

[canadianlisa]

No words of advice from me either but just to say that I am in the same boat. My daughter is 7 months old and for the last month and half we had the same- 3-4 times a night waking. Waking up grinning and wide awake, one time she had taken all of the bottom sheet out of the travel cot, crying etc. I think that there is so much going on for them at this stage that they are a bit all over the place. Some babies anyways.

I also rock her and feed her to sleep. Health Visitor advised also to try to get her to start settling herself for naps which I will do, but we are not at all happy to let her cry alone in her room for very long. I have been trying to resettles her with the dummy at 3 a.m. when she wakes but it does not work. However if I fed her for about 5 minutes she goes back down well and easily and it is a lot less stressful for everyone. We have also started to leave her in the cot in the morning for a bit longer. She is generally happy to chat away to herself for 1/2 hour which at least means that we get a little more sleep. She then comes into the bed and we can all have a little longer rest for another 1/2 hour and then Daddy gets up with her and I snooze for a bit longer. It all helps.

The kind of good news is that this week we seemed to have turned a corner - we have had a few nights of sleeping through (7- 6 with a dream feed) or one night waking in which I fed her and she went off very quickly and easily and then slept till 7 ish. We'll see. Good luck

L x

[alieh]

I found that the feeding back to sleep in the middle of the night stopped working at some point...maybe around 8 months for us (signs were him staying wide awake for ages after feed, refusing feed, biting my nip, etc.), so I had much more incentive to try other methods of resettling (i.e. walking, rocking, etc.) once the feeding stopped working.

I kept worrying about feeding him every time he woke at night, but with the next baby I won't worry about it at all, I will just keep doing it until it stops working and then make a new plan at that point.

[Fuschia]

One thing to remember is that they CHANGE.

As the brain develops they gradually move towards adult sleep patterns (longer cycles)

Just like you wouldn't be worrying about self-feeding or bedwetting in a newborn, those stages come later with other stages in between (first solids etc and then self-feeding is a stage after THAT for eg, and using the potty in the day time, wees then poos, before a child is dry at night) the same with sleep. A newborn needs your help, and their little systems just can't settle and self soothe ... later on you can start to help them with those things, when they are developmentally ready.

[jenc]

I felt exactly the same (still do about lots of things) and I think there's a whole load of pressure out there along the lines of 'if you do this and make sure you don't do that your baby will sleep through the night by X number of weeks' and as far as I can tell it's a load of rubbish. Mine (7 months) sleeps through some times now, other times doesn't and when he wakes up I give him milk because it gets him back to sleep - I was feeling really bad about it and thinking I shouldn't as he doesn't NEED milk but who cares if it gets him (and me) back to sleep. Interestingly when I mentioned it to the HV she said go ahead if that's what gets him back to sleep and you shouldn't expect babies not to wake up until they're at least a year - one of the most helpful things I've ever heard from a HV! Having just held him to get him off to sleep for his nap, I just keep telling myself that I won't be doing that when he's 10, say, just like he won't be having milk in the middle of the night when he's 10 either! It's really hard when you're in the middle of it but I think I've found the most helpful thing just to think that it will pass eventually.

[supergolden88]

My daughter (who is now four) did not sleep through the night until she was 13 months. She woke up several times a night usually 2-4. When she woke up I used to breastfeed her back to sleep. Towards the end she really did not need any feeds but woke up anyway. I was nearly going mad with sleep deprivation. Tried many things including sleep training (half heartedly), sound machines, hearbeat lullabies, delaying her feeds and nothing worked. In the end when she was 13 months I promised myself to do sleep training properly (bought the book which really helped, Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems) and would you believe it she slept through on the second night! First night she cried quite a lot but I followed the book to the letter and hardened my heart. Since she slept through she had a couple of cases of waking up but they were isolated. I am now pregnant again and I have to say I am dreading the sleepless nights. Curious to see how second one behaves - I really think all babies are completely different.I think in my case the constant breastfeeding, wonderful though it is, may have contributed to her waking up so much. Good luck!

[poppy]

Thanks jenc and supergolden88! Yes yes, I agree that there is a lot of pressure to follow certain formulae outlined in various baby books with the presumption that if you do so, your child will sleep. Trouble is, if they don't, it's very easy to feel that you've somehow failed.

Anyhow, having said that, just last weekend I too bought Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems - I agree SG88, it is really helpful, especially the stuff about understanding sleep cycles. We are now on structured plan to wean my son off his nighttime feeds, but am keeping an open mind... maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but at least it'll eliminate one possible cause for such wakefulness and for now I feel as though we're heading in the right direction. Good luck with your pregnancy and hope the next one turns out to be a beautiful little sleeper!!

[ontherye32]

I had a very similar experience. Various people suggested leaving him to settle but he isn't one for lying quietly while I pat him or rub him, never mind leaving the room and I just never felt comfortable with it. He is more about crawling up and down, standing up, lying down, standing up, lying down, giggling...... I persevered with the feeding, cuddling, whatever he needed to make him comfortable enough to get him to sleep.

I went through a phase about the same point as you as thinking that I was being soft and doing it all wrong and feeling guilty that he wouldn't learn to do it himself and that I had missed the opportunity to ever instill "good sleeping practices", but am now glad that I just went with it as he is now (at 10 months) sleeping through most of the time (unless he is about to master a new trick or has a tooth coming through) and mostly just needs a quick rub on the back to send him off if he wakes and doesn't settle himself (boy have I jixed my sleep for this weekend!!). I think we are approaching "the other side" and I think that my sanity is (almost) "intact"!! Good luck xx

[Ko]

gosh it is hard isn't it. i honestly think that you should do whatever works for you. i still let mine fall asleep cuddled up in my arms. i only put him down once he has been asleep in my arms for 20 mins as then i know he's hopefully sound asleep. yes gina would not approve but never mind. whether they sleep thru is really a game of luck. i know people whose first child slept like an angel but the second was a nightmare. big hugs xxx