Cycling: issues/noticeboard

[titch juicy]

I would love to know the stats of how many of the cyclists killed on london roads WEREN'T involving a cyclist riding up the left had side of a large vehicle at a junction.

Surely by now; between news coverage, anecdotes and big signs on the back of long vehicles, people realise that a lorry driver cannot see you in certain blind spots down that side.

Yet, every day on my cycling commmute i see cyclists so desparate to make up another 10 seconds time, that they take their life into their own hands doing just that.

It's madness on their part.

MOST large vehicle drivers are as considerate as they can be towards cyclists. Cyclists must take repsonsibility for their own actions. Waiting 10 seconds behind a large vehicle is no inconvenience.

[Applespider]

titch - I see them too. And occasionally, when I choose to wait behind and get sworn at for my timidity (read common sense) wonder why the message doesn't sink in.

But, not all the deaths are caused by that. I seem to recall one (near Oval?) was the lorry driver driving over the cyclist who was in front of him (and had been there when he pulled up). My two close shaves with HGVs have both been where they chose to overtake me at a dangerous point and then had to pull back in suddenly. Thankfully on both occasions, I was riding defensively and had braked hard to let them complete their overtake - if not, I'd have been swiped by their rear wheels without having done anything wrong (I was a good metre out from the kerb on both occasions so hardly hugging the gutter!)

[malumbu]

30 years cycling in London. Plenty of incidents but none involving a truck as yet. Gone by them on the inside 1000s of times, but not when it was daft (ie they could turn left across me).

Two close shaves this week (and it been months since my last one), a car u-turned in front of me after we both pulled into a side street. I yelled frantically louder as I turned increasingy sharper until the driver stopped. She was more shocked than me, and it ended up in me conforting her. Not in that way I hasten to add.

Then a two year old jumped into the road at a bus stop, I veered and he then ran. I assume that I shouted as a parent grabbed him. If I'd hit him he may not be with us now, and perhaps I may have gone into a car as well.

Like my football skills, my positioning and awareness are at their peak, unlike my physical fitness! But I still end up analysing these situations on how I could have avoided them.

I come across far more couteous motorists, including taxi drivers and bus drivers, than dangerous ones.

[Applespider]

malumbu - overall, I agree. There are far more good drivers out there than bad - it's probably why the bad ones stick out so much! I've had some really good HGV drivers too who have stayed well back and only passed when there was acres of room. I've emailed their companies on most occasions to thank them for their driver training!

[Applespider]

Anyone here going to the 'Space for Cyclists' ride tomorrow night (Monday 2 Sept)? It's organised by LCC to coincide with a debate on cycling in the House of Commons. Starts at Jubilee Gardens (6-6.30) and then heads to Parliament Square.

More details here:

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/join-our-2-september-space-for-cycling-protest-ride-telling-the-mayor-that-we-need-dedicated-space-for-cycling

I'd urge anyone who cycles regularly - particularly if they're riding home in any case and are nearby - to consider getting home a little later and joining in.

[Laddy Muck]

Did you go, Applespider? Regrettably, I didn't.

[bon3yard]

Bugger, I always hear about these things after the fact!

[Applespider]

I did go... and ended up in the Evening Standard as a result which was a surprise since I hadn't spotted my picture being taken.

I'm the one high-fiving the kids.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/5000-cyclists-protest-for-better-safety-on-londons-roads-after-spate-of-deaths-8795545.html

It was a really great evening - cyclists of every age (in the attached pic, you can see six-months to 60+), bikes of every type (penny farthing to tandems to cargo bikes) and it was really good natured. The police held the traffic back so that the ride could flow - and I only heard one abusive driver despite the resulting jam - the LCC organisers were very good about speaking to drivers pleasantly as we went around. Quite a few people (including me) who said that it was their first campaign ride.

[katanita]

So sad to hear about the cyclist's death in West Dulwich yesterday. Whenever a fatality or serious injury occurs on our roads, particularly in relation to lorries, it seems to spark a "who's in the wrong" debate as was the case yesterday with a freight industry body (http://cyclelondoncity.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/freight-association-declares-war-on.html) saying that cyclists need to take more responsibility for their actions, and cycling groups calling for lorries to be regulated, fitted with safety devices or having better driver training.

In these discussions, the research and information being referred to seems pretty sketchy to me, on both sides (e.g. references to the fact that 100% of lorries when stopped have been found to be breaking the law in some way, or references to numbers of accidents etc, neither necessarily leading to a particular conclusion about cycle safety). I want to know what the reality is, in order to keep myself safe on the road when riding.

So I'm wondering, has anyone seen an article or piece of research that looked at the accident reports in these situations to work out what actually happened? Is it always a matter of cyclists getting caught on the inside? Is this due to overtaking lorries, and what can you do if that happens? Or is it due to cyclists riding in dangerous and unsighted positions? The prevailing view seems to be that it's always about riding on the inside, but what if overtaking lorries in slow traffic can also be very dangerous for reasons I haven't thought of? And what if some cyclists have managed to avoid serious injury by taking a particular sort of action, I'd like to know that too.

It's not for my personal info, I'm also keen to know if junction design (for example) or campaign messages from both sides are being based on evidence of this sort, or conjecture?

[silverfox]

Wholeheartedly agree with you Katanita - it's time we had some real facts concerning this whole issue.

I think it's also time the government took responsibility for encouraging more cyclists to take to the road with a new range of safe cycling adverts/public information broadcasts aimed at cyclists, eg don't position yourself on the inside of lorries, tankers, buses etc that may be turning left - or, cyclists have no right to move out in front of traffic to overtake parked vehicles unless it is safe to do so and only when using appropriate hand signals - to name but two necessary warnings.

[titch juicy]

If you don't ride up the inside of a long vehicle at a junction; if you sit behind for the extra ten seconds; you won't get killed by a long vehicle turning at a junction.

Seems pretty simple to me.

A man nearly got himself squashed on my cycle home yesterday- at the junction of tower bridge road and the little side road leading to grange road. The 78 bus was indicating left and just started to turn, but it didn't stop the cyclist zooming up his inside, having to slam on his own brakes and falling off on to the pavement. He was lucky.

I feel so much for the drivers in these circumstances.

It might be a simplistic view- but I don't want any more concessions made for cyclists, no more dedicated cycling space, no more duel purpose cycle tracks (like surrey canal- i would hate to be a pedestrian along there, the speed some cyclists go...it's only a matter of time before a kid get's hit) until more is done for the education of cyclists.

All the focus of these campaigns seems to be about making it easier for cyclists, without any thought of educating the potential extra cyclists that will be encouraged to start.

I think Sustrans, LCC and the like should put all the extra space for cyclists plans on hold and focus all their attention and funding into educating existing cyclists.

Then give us more space.

[henryb]

> - or, cyclists have no right to move out in

> front of traffic to overtake parked vehicles

Yes they do have right. Cyclist are entitled use the entire lane without signalling. The problem you are describing is caused by car drivers over taking cyclists too closely. They should give the same amount of space as over taking car and use the other lane - then cyclists would have space to navigate park cars/pot holes.

The highway code is quite specific about. They even have a picture.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169

Your post illustrates what many cycling groups are saying which the biggest safety problem for cyclists is ill-informed and bad drivers.

[silverfox]

Sorry henryb, have you sent me the wrong reference?

Everything on your link backs up what I stated. I would draw your attention specifically to:

162

Before overtaking you should make sure

the road is sufficiently clear ahead

road users are not beginning to overtake you

there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake.

163

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so.

167

DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example

between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop

when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down

These safety messages should be rammed home to cyclists with 30 second ads broadcast repeatedly at peak viewing times.

[henryb]

Here.

"give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211 to 213 and 214 to 215)."

There is a picture underneath. Look at it. Why would passing a parked car conflict with another road user is they were overtaking safely?

This message needs to rammed down the throat of car drivers with custodial sentences if need be. The wide spread criminality of the car drivers on the road causes hundreds of deaths every year. For example on 30mph roads on average 50% of cars are breaking the speed limit. We need to have automatic bans for anyone breaking the limit.

[Townleygreen]

silverfox,

the highway code link has a picture (scroll down a bit) which shows the amount of space a car should give when overtaking a cyclist - ie as much as a car!

[silverfox]

I understand that Townleygreen, but you and hentryb seem to miss the point I was making which was cyclists have no right to shoot out in front of cars if their way is blocked.

Let me give you an example that happened to me recently:

I was going south over Tower Bridge around 7pm the other evening. The speed limit is 20mph and there are some bus stops on the left of the bridge. I was crawling behind a bus so all I can see is the back of the bus and on-coming traffic. The bus signals left to pull over at a bus stop. Me, mirror, signal manoeuvre, start to overtake the bus. I notice there is a second bus in front of the one that I am overtaking which is also stopped. SCREECH a cyclist pulls out from between the two parked buses in front of me and them hurriedly pulls back to the left. SHE, then starts pounding on the roof of my car as if I am somehow in the wrong.

Please explain to me how a cyclist who finds herself caught at a bus stop between two buses feels she has the right to just launch herself in front of cars when it's not safe to do so.

As regards the pretty picture that you are drawing my attention to - wouldn't life be simple if things were so idyllic and tranquil. The reality is there would probably be two or three cyclists on the left of the car, even two-abreast and two or three on the driver's side of the car. The poor car driver could not give the cyclists the ideal amount of room without forcing them into the path of on-coming traffic.

[titch juicy]

I agree completely with Silverfox. Her example illustrates just another example of a cyclist acting with a completely unjustified sense of entitlement. Just because we are able to move faster than other road traffic around London, it doesn't give us the right to do so in all circumstances.

For god's sake- all it requires is a little patience and common sense.

[henryb]

It would be interesting to hear her side of the story. But yes sounds like you were cut up by a cyclist. Hardly something unique to cyclists in central London. Would you be complaining if a car had done the same thing?

[silverfox]

You accept my point then henryb?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I find this thread and generally, the rising narrative of 'cyclists as a problem' across the media at the moment, really at odds with my experience. I am a car driver, a pedestrian and an occasional cyclist. Yes, I sometimes see bad behaviour by cyclists, but also by car drivers and often by pedestrians (walking out in front of traffic whilst texting for example).

So which of these problems should concern me most. It seems to me that, if I were going to get exercised about one of these forms of antisocial behaviour, it would be dangerous car driving by a country mile. It's the most frequent observed in my experience and has by far the most serious consequences for other people.

Is that to excuse the other forms of bad behaviour, of course not. But to fixate on cyclists specifically just seems odd to me. Maybe I've been missing all the deaths and injuries that cyclists have been inflicting on people, I don't know?

[katanita]

I think the original aim of this thread was to get away from this cycling vs driver stuff, which happens enough elsewhere on the forum (and everywhere else, ad nauseum), and discuss other cycling issues. I wasn't aiming to restart that debate, but had hoped to find out more research in the area. I've done more checking, and can't turn up anything. Might email the London Cycling Campaign. If no-one has taken the time to go through accident reports it seems like an opportunity missed.

[henryb]

I accept it annoying when people cut you up. I don't accept that cyclist do it anymore than any other group of road users. Cyclist as a group are the safest road users and are at fault in only a minority of the accidents they are involved in and when they are it is normally them that gets injured. This is not the case with car drivers who kill and serious injure thousands every year. Yes their are idiot cyclists as the idiot drivers and idiot pedestrians but biggest problem from road safety point view and by a very large margin is bad driving and bad road design, not bad cycling.

[Saturn 5]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/too-much-spin-is-slowing-down-the-cycling-revolution-8798594.html

[LadyDeliah]

Loads of cycling and running gear in Lidl at the moment. I got a winter cycle jacket and new gloves for a really good price, ready for the change in weather.

[AGW3]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/428195/Cycling-to-work-is-more-popular-than-ever

I don't cycle in London myself but approve of cycling as a mode of transport and think that it must take courage to cycle in the capital (I wouldn't do it). As a driver I worry about hitting a cyclist as they sometimes seem to appear from nowhere, or put another way, I sometimes only see them at the last second before having to brake sharply. If, as the article shows cyclist numbers are increasing, then I feel that Tfl must improve infrasture to reflect this.