Tenant Tax - BTL mortgages

[Tracey Forest]

Hi All

Not sure if you're aware of this but quite a few buy to let mortgaged landlords are facing a huge increase in tax over the next four years. Now whether you agree or disagree with private landlords living and breathing in society I don't think you can argue that a business shouldn't lawfully offset borrowing costs if the borrowing is for the running of that business.

Please take a read here and let me know if you think the tax is unfair. Please copy and paste into your browser if you can't click to link. https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/tenanttax/

I'm unashamedly asking for a donation if you agree with our position on this matter. We've employed Omnia to help us with our court case. We're still waiting to hear from the CPS whether we've got a decent chance of winning but all donations are recorded so we know where they came from.

Many thanks in advance to taking a look - tenants and landlords alike are affected by these tax changes so please take a look.

Kindest always

Tracey

[Tracey Forest]

Hasn't anyone got anything to say in response. I'd really value your feedback. Does my post concern you at all??

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hasn't anyone got anything to say in response. I'd

> really value your feedback. Does my post concern

> you at all??

Oh well, if you're begging for a response, yes it does concern me that greedy private buy to let landlords, who are responsible for so many of the housing problems suffered by those who can't afford to buy/find an affordable rented place in London, are going to use this perfectly reasonable tax measure to push up their rents. If a landlord finds him/herself with an allegedly loss making rental property as a result of this tax, let him/her sell it and hopefully contribute to some deflation in the housing market so that those currently at the mercy of your oh-so-put-upon landlords might be able to afford to buy.

By the way, the claim on the website that you link to that this is going to affect "some of the most vulnerable people in society" is sickening. Private BTL landlords are notorious for treating those on benefits with utter contempt, treating them as cash cows and driving them out the second there's a problem or a sign that they might have trouble meeting the rent.

I have no sympathy at all with BTL landlords, the vast majority of whom are simply exploiters of the housing crisis in London and have no interest in anything but their own profit.

Well, you did ask for a response...

[Tracey Forest]

Yes that's right I did ask for a response. would you like to qualify your response.

Do you also think that corporate landlords are better or worse than private landlords. I could give you a number of examples where private buy to let landlords do not increase rents in line with rent rises in the general market. Where private buy to let landlords will respond immediately to requests for repairs. They'll also help benefit claimants by reducing rents for the right person. Further that they'll keep rents low for good tenants.

I have genuine examples and I can name them - can you?

[SLad]

Also, why in God's name would you be waiting to hear from the Crown Prosecution Service on whether a judicial review claim has prospects of success? If you're asking people for money, you should at least understand what's going on.

I am a buy to let landlord and I think the 'someone else can pay off my mortgage' approach to taxation adopted until recently was ridiculous and am quite happy to pay the new tax on my earnings from my property. To categorise the tax as a 'tenant tax' is quite ridiculous.

[rendelharris]

SLad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, why in God's name would you be waiting to

> hear from the Crown Prosecution Service on whether

> a judicial review claim has prospects of success?

> If you're asking people for money, you should at

> least understand what's going on.

>

> I am a buy to let landlord and I think the

> 'someone else can pay off my mortgage' approach to

> taxation adopted until recently was ridiculous and

> am quite happy to pay the new tax on my earnings

> from my property. To categorise the tax as a

> 'tenant tax' is quite ridiculous.

Good for you Slad - one of the good 'uns, obviously. Exception that proves the rule...

[Tracey Forest]

How much will it affect you Slad?

[Tracey Forest]

We're waiting for the go ahead because that's what we have to wait for. The CPS is there to decide whether we can go ahead. This is the case in criminal law as well. I do understand what's going on Slad.

I would think from your response that you are unencumbered. As I said in my original post - this is more about being able to offset borrowing as a business as an incorporated company is allowed to do in the years to come.

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes that's right I did ask for a response. would

> you like to qualify your response.

>

> Do you also think that corporate landlords are

> better or worse than private landlords. I could

> give you a number of examples where private buy to

> let landlords do not increase rents in line with

> rent rises in the general market. Where private

> buy to let landlords will respond immediately to

> requests for repairs. They'll also help benefit

> claimants by reducing rents for the right person.

> Further that they'll keep rents low for good

> tenants.

>

> I have genuine examples and I can name them - can

> you?

Yep, before Mrs H and I were lucky enough to buy our own place we rented from four different BTL landlords, in all of these properties we had to make our own repairs as the landlords refused to undertake them, they regularly hiked the rents way above inflation and always held onto our deposits, forcing us to take court action to reclaim them, without justification.

Let's hear your "genuine examples" of those lovely BTL landlords who respond immediately to requests for repairs and who reduce the rent for those on benefits please.

[Jules-and-Boo]

OP - I get the uncomfortable feeling that you are probing too much.

Do you need your own views to be validated?

There are so mnay things wrong with the housing policy in general;

1) Right to buy housing stock at discount (and then sell at market rate) - depleting council owned properties and therefore the housing available for vulnerable people....

2) Agencies increasing rents for their clients, as they of course make profit this way

3) Foreign investment with tax free profit

to name a few obvious ones.

Private individuals who invest in property are not a business, so a mortgage is not the same as a business loan.

Are you personally offended by having to pay tax on profits? The concept of BTL is that the owner gets their mortgage paid......

[Tracey Forest]

Me for a start and a lot of the landlords who attended the tenant tax summit in Kensington early June 2016. Serious private landlords who want to make a difference and do make a difference.

I don't know what years you're talking about when you rented but certainly since the deposit schemes were brought in there's been a major shift for the tenant and the landlord something I'd have liked to see back in the day when I rented during the eighties and nineties. There's so much more protection now that we can only welcome it. Makes for a fairer hearing on both sides.

[Jules-and-Boo]

how about arguing for tenants rights, rather than tax-free profit?

It would be beneficial for tenants to have longer, more secured contracts, legislation for landlords re repairs and rent caps.

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Me for a start and a lot of the landlords who

> attended the tenant tax summit in Kensington early

> June 2016. Serious private landlords who want to

> make a difference and do make a difference.

>

> I don't know what years you're talking about when

> you rented but certainly since the deposit schemes

> were brought in there's been a major shift for the

> tenant and the landlord something I'd have liked

> to see back in the day when I rented during the

> eighties and nineties. There's so much more

> protection now that we can only welcome it. Makes

> for a fairer hearing on both sides.

"Me for a start" and the fact that you met some people at a private landlord event do not, of themselves, constitute "genuine examples."

[Tracey Forest]

We're not arguing for tax free profit Jules-and-Boo. Many private landlords pay 40% as opposed to the 20% that corporate buy to let landlords pay. We're not happy with having to pay up to 233% tax on a zero profit. I've got the calcs if you're interested in seeing them.

This is about tenants rights. My tenants stay in excess of 6 to 7 years. A lot of private landlords want tenants to stay around and build a good relationship with them.

It's the corporates you need to be careful of. They're the ones with a close eye on the most recent rent hikes.

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We're waiting for the go ahead because that's what

> we have to wait for. The CPS is there to decide

> whether we can go ahead. This is the case in

> criminal law as well.

The Crown Prosecution Service have nothing to do with civil case requests for legal review. From its own website: "The Crown Prosecution Service is responsible for prosecuting criminal cases investigated by the police in England and Wales." I think you really need to get a good legal advisor before asking people for contributions.

[Tracey Forest]

Why not - they were living and breathing - what's a genuine example to you rendalharris?

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why not - they were living and breathing - what's

> a genuine example to you rendalharris?

So as you say that you and some other people you met are jolly decent landlords, that's supposed to constitute "genuine examples"?

Can we have a response to the point made by myself and others above about your claim that you're waiting for the CPS to approve your action please?

[Tracey Forest]

Apologies to all

It's permissions the case is waiting for.

[Tracey Forest]

Further I'd like to know if buy to let landlords reading this thread are affected by the increased taxation on private individuals. If it does affect let me know if you'd like the information provided by the tenant tax summit in June 2016. I'm happy to mail you a copy.

[rendelharris]

Tracey Forest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Apologies to all

>

> It's permissions the case is waiting for.

And with that acknowledgement of the level of expertise and evidence with which we're dealing, I'm out. All the best with your case, hope you lose and that buy to let landlords might have to rethink their fracking of the London property market. Cheerio.

[Loz]

Possibly the worst thought out measure in a long time. It will have one of the following two effects:

1) Will push up rents. Not via landlord's whim - anyone who has rented out a property knows that it just doesn't work that way. But by lowering the rental housing stock in an already overheated market. And in a way that won't actually lower selling prices by any significant amount.

2) Will push rental properties into the hands of the corporate landlords, which will lead a few number of players to have a more concentrated hold on the UK rental market.

It's stupid as well because it only affects non-corporate landlords whose total earnings are in the 40% and above tax bracket, so it is not fairly applied. Also, in no other business are you not allowed to claim interest costs against revenue, so why restrict it here?

Of course, it will falsely raise the hopes of all the people who are caught in the housing crisis, but will then actually make things worse for them. But, hey, 52% of people voted for Brexit on a bunch of crap promises that will end up making life worse for them, so this is really only an extension of that lemming-like behaviour.

Full disclosure: I used to be a one-property landlord, but sold up recently.

[Tracey Forest]

Thanks rendalharris - you make no mention of the fairness of the tax but you do demonise the private landlord. I would be interested to know if your experience with renting was from corporate or private. Speaking as a renter I've rented from both corporates and private landlords and the private landlords were the ones who communicated fairly and freely.

[Tracey Forest]

A fair assessment Loz thank you for making your thoughts known.

[Saffron]

This may or may not benefit tenants, but it's not directly about tenants' rights. Framing it as tentants' rights seems disingenuous.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Face it, this is pure self-interest. And asking for a donation to the campaign - Jesus wept! The fear and greed index at work. It's almost a form of narcissism.

It was really noticeable in the Brexit, London mayor and last general election campaigns that politicians now expect voters only to care about what's in it for them. It makes it all the more heartening when someone does do the right thing. Good for you, SLad.