thinking about joining lib dems

[pebs]

lifelong conservative supporter (aside from sadiq khan - london) but this is too much. Lib dems only party to offer a brexit way out. May a good solid choice but she will push through brexit. Absolutely needs to be a general election before rule 50 invoked and that is what I hope the masses campaign for... we are in unprecedented times and you never know what could happen at next election ...

[Jenny1]

I agree in principle. Seems sensible to join the lib dems under current circumstances. Though I see the SNP offering more right now, but obviously they're not currently relevant to an English electorate (though note my plan on another thread to change that). Could lib dems and SNP do deal maybe?

PS Do you know of a current petition calling for a general election pre Article 50 invoked? If not can someone set one up?

[pebs]

am not aware. think it would be a good idea...

[Lordship 516]

Three ways to cause a General Election

Vote of no confidence in the government - simple majority over 50% wins

Straight vote for General Election - super majority of 2/3 wins

Revoke the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 - might get stuck in Lords or the Courts with challenges.

Otherwise have to wait for 2020

[pebs]

or significant protest ...

[Jenny1]

Thanks Lordship 516. Any ideas on how members of public can work towards any of these options?

[Lordship 516]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks Lordship 516. Any ideas on how members of

> public can work towards any of these options?

Only by lobbying MPs - it is a function of Parliament

Also the super majority has to be 2/3 of MPs, not just those present in the House for voting.

This is in place to prevent a coup.

[Lordship 516]

The other issue is when it could be invoked - as Cameron has effectively resigned so also has the current government so we have to await a new PM being appointed by the Queen & a new government formed before a General Election could be called for by either route.

What no one is saying out loud [except for Hunt rather opaquely] is that the referendum is only advisory and it is for parliament to vote on Brexit & not the PM to action it. The PM can only propose & offer it for a vote which could be voted down by the MPs.

This could concievably happen, once they have time to reflect & realise the mess that awaits us all over the next X number of years [unknown]

[Jenny1]

Thanks Lordship. So it would make sense both to lobby Helen Hayes and to 'lobby' MPs in general via a petition, I suppose - both on a wish for a general election and a wish for MPs to reject Brexit?

[pebs]

could you run a survey on the forum and present Helen Hayes with the results in the letter?

[Lordship 516]

If it came to a straight vote of MPs, Brexit would fail. However, many MPs would adopt the moral high ground & vote for Brexit for many diverse reasons. Some from conviction & respect to the referendum result & others afraid to lose their seats in the next election as their electorate might turn on them. Farage would have apoplexy - possibly fatal, one upside ! However it is up to parliament and he could go to all the courts in the land and fail. I think this is the strategy that the EU are engaged in - putting so much pressure on the UK to wake the legislators up and see sense to vote Brexit down.

[Jenny1]

Hi pebs. I haven't run a survey before - but it can't be that tricky. I assume you mean a semi-formalised 'vote'. If you have any expertise do let me know.

I expect you're right Lordship in your estimation of the current EU strategy. I agree on what might motivate MPs. I think it important to lobby them now. Do add thoughts you may have.

Apoplexy is to be dearly wished for.

[muffins78]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree in principle. Seems sensible to join the

> lib dems under current circumstances. Though I see

> the SNP offering more right now, but obviously

> they're not currently relevant to an English

> electorate (though note my plan on another thread

> to change that). Could lib dems and SNP do deal

> maybe?

>

> PS Do you know of a current petition calling for a

> general election pre Article 50 invoked? If not

> can someone set one up?

That's a good idea re the petition?!?! How could that be set up? Like the one calling for the second referendum!!

[Lordship 516]

> That's a good idea re the petition?!?! How could

> that be set up? Like the one calling for the

> second referendum!!

We could set up a new petition or we could set up a dedicated website

[muffins78]

I wouldn't have a clue about either - but a petition could be shared easily!

The only downside, on reflection, is that is there really another party - and I guess I do want the stability of Osborne, personally!

What if a Brexit party got in?

Do we trust who we have to do their best, or risk having a much more serious issue in our hands!

Boris has a lot to answer for (and Gove)!! I don't believe either believed in Brexit, and there was no necessity for anyone to support Brexit - apart from Farage etc.. It's just terrible the utter lies that were told!!

[Lordship 516]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > That's a good idea re the petition?!?! How

> could

> > that be set up? Like the one calling for the

> > second referendum!!

>

> We could set up a new petition or we could set up

> a dedicated website

The wording would have to be simple, careful & precise.

Both channels are subject to being hijacked but we might have more control over a website as we could block multiple votes from the same IP address. This also has some problems as this would also bar legitimate voters, say, husband wife & older children, people voting from the same business location & so on.

Maybe the parliamentary petition is best as it has its inherent legitimacy and they can sort the good from the bad.

[Lordship 516]

We the undersigned call upon all MPs to vote to remain in the European Union.

[Lordship 516]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check

We need to have 5 email addresses to post the petition

[muffins78]

If that's the only wording and nothing about an election, then good idea!! :) :) and yes the parliamentary site :)

But aren't they meant to debate the petition? So would it have to be that we request the MPs to hold a vote for in/out??

[Lordship 516]

They will have to debate it anyway, so we should try to get the petition to call for what we want - opt out of Brexit.

I'm open to any wording - suggestions ?

[muffins78]

Let me think too, and perhaps someone else will have an idea!!

How about something on the lines of, if they debate the second referendum and decide not to hold it, that before article 50 is triggered, MPs must hold a vote to show their complete support to the triggering of the article 50. If there the vote is a'no' then the article 50 can not be triggered?

Badly worded, but you'll get my drift!!

[Lordship 516]

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/29/richard-ekins-the-legitimacy-of-the-brexit-referendum/

This is worth reading & probably is what will sway MPs to stick to the Brexit proposition.

I don't agree always with learned opinion as it doesn't always reflect real life or good sense.

The law quite often [not sometimes] can be an ass.

[pebs]

muffins 78 - good call

[muffins78]

The site is not opening for me - laptop on go-slow!!!

Are we going to do this then? Who is willing to help? It will be a back up to them not holding the second referendum? Assuming we get signatures - but it will need to be positioned that way, so potential signatories understand that it is a contingency petition!!!

[pebs]

should we check to see if there is anything similar already? will take a look ...