Labour resignations

[red devil]

7 out of 10 Corbyns prefer Whiskas...

[Blah Blah]

I was talking to some young people earlier, young labour supporters, and one made a very interesting point. He said that he supported Jeremys direction, but felt Jeremy had done his job (of shaking the landscape) and it was now time for him to step aside to let someone who is a better leader to take over. He saw Corbyn as the pathmaker, for the true leader to emerge.

One of the things to turn me off is the idea that there is no-one else but Jeremy. This really is naval gazing of the most stubborn kind.

172 MPs can not be ignored. They are not all blairites. If they break away (and they are looking into the legality of keeping the 'Labour' name) then the party is finished.

That for me is far bigger than the issue of leader. There is something obviously going on behind doors that makes Jeremy impossible to work with. It's not about policies, it's personal.

I am truly torn as a long standing and committed party member.

[JoeLeg]

Yeah, nice one Corbyn supporters. Great way to make the party look reasonable...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/revealed-labour-mps-go-to-police-over-death-threats-after-refusa/

[Lordship 516]

The whole debacle has been mismanaged all round. JC is known to be principled & stubborn & is probably a bit dogmatic - he has spent his whole life fighting for his beliefs in an independent manner and almost always against the mainstream so what is happening now is just the norm for him & he is not fazed. John McDonnell is a clever organizer & Seumas Milne knows his way around the media so JC has an effective team around him. There is no point in trying to reason with these people now as the PLP adopted a scorched earth policy from the off and this caused everyone to adopt adversarial entrenched positions. There ought to be a more consensual way out of this but that evaporated once the PLP struck - JC is locked into a position that is further exacerbated by the presence of Seumas Milne & John McDonnell - both devious & uncompromising. If JC doesn't relent & resign, then the Labour Party as we know it will be torn asunder. This is Bliar's legacy & reaction to his manipulation of the party towards the right, disguised as a move to the centre. Mr Bliar not only misrepresented the facts in relation to Saddam having WMD but he also cynically misrepresented what the Labour Party stood for. Sir Christopher Meyer -?If we look at Iraq today it?s a failed state. If we look at Syria it?s a failed state. And a lot of this derives from the fact that on the basis of faulty intelligence the US and the UK went to war in 2003'. The same applies to the Labour Party failure - it all lies at Mr Bliar's door. He used New Labour to create New Tory - greatly admired by Gove, Osborne & Cameron who has used him as an adviser. He went too far to the right & now we have an adjustment that went too far to the left. Thank you Anthony Charles Lynton Bliar - let's see what Chilcott says about your performance.

[heartblock]

I'm really sad about JC, I've always admired him and I do believe he hasn't got a dishonest bone in his body. It hasn't worked for many reasons, some due to the lack of support from Labour MPs and some due to a lack of his leadership skills. I'm hoping he has changed the party for the better and he has encouraged lots of young people to become involved. I'm really happy about Angela standing, I think she is great, she certainly told it like it is to George Osbourne in Parliment a few times.

[DaveR]

"I want Labour to have a leadership election. If Corbyn comes through that, which I think he will (though not with my vote) I want the PLP to shut the @#$%& up and back him."

If Corbyn hangs on and wins another leadership election a large slice of the PLP won't have the option - the knives will be out and they will either have to jump or be de-selected. Which in turn is why another Corbyn win will inevitably split the party.

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> This is Bliar's legacy

Yes, naughty Tony Blair. Bad man. Making the party electable.

Corbyn certainly can't be accused of that.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > This is Bliar's legacy

>

> Yes, naughty Tony Blair. Bad man. Making the party

> electable.

>

> Corbyn certainly can't be accused of that.

Bliar mainly made Tony Bliar electable & has since profited wildly along with the rest of his family & cronies.

History [including next week's Chilcott report] will show him as a charlatan & agent for his paymasters.

[JoeLeg]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lordship 516 Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > This is Bliar's legacy

> >

> > Yes, naughty Tony Blair. Bad man. Making the

> party

> > electable.

> >

> > Corbyn certainly can't be accused of that.

>

> Bliar mainly made Tony Bliar electable & has since

> profited wildly along with the rest of his family

> & cronies.

>

> History will show him as a charlatan & agent for

> his paymasters.

Well, yes, that's probably true. Bit consider this (not my original words, but something I read online which has resonated with me)

"Perhaps if we accept that this is essentially a conservative country, we see why no party that moved to the hard left has had so much as a sniff of power. Tory dominance is guaranteed unless Labour is willing to occupy the centre ground, and recognise that under the current electoral system there is no way a true left wing government will ever hold power."

There are many people who support Corbyns message, but they're never going to get a chance to enact it. Our electoral system prevents that.

[Mick Mac]

Not our electoral system surely...! Labours choices I would say. Surely Kinnock, Smith and Blair showed how to get into a position where you can act.

If you mean our basis of government then ok. But major issues have majority votes, so Labour have a say - its just that they are perhaps out of touch with what is needed for the majority rather than the minority to prosper.

[DaveR]

"Bliar mainly made Tony Bliar electable & has since profited wildly along with the rest of his family & cronies.

History [including next week's Chilcott report] will show him as a charlatan & agent for his paymasters."

I think you're wrong. History will portray Blair as the most gifted political leader of his generation who succeeded in remodelling a party that was fatally out of touch and looking likely to become an irrelevance. However, he did a deal with his friend/rival that significantly limited his power in relation to domestic policy and then got drawn into foreign policy adventuring (like so many second and third term leaders), which proved his undoing. However, his influence continued to be felt as Cameron took on the same task for the Tories, with (so far) similar electoral results.

[JoeLeg]

Let me clarify - First Past The Post is a system which will never allow a hard-left party into power as it tends to give all power to one party, as witness the fact that we've only had one coalition outside of wartime.

The losing side he to lick it's wounds and try again next time. Proportional Representation is the only way you get an accurate reflection of how the country really votes, but it brings its own troubles.

So Labour is stuck being unable to function effectively as a hard left party because too many people disagree with them, enough in fact to keep them from power. Blair knew how to get elected, regardless of his faults. Corbyn feels that principle is more important. Well, fine. I have no argument with that, but I struggle to see how he thinks it will make him PM given the general feeling in the nation.

[Lordship 516]

Angela Eagle & supporters realize that they would likely not win a direct challenge to JC so she is holding off in the faint hope JC will resign. I think this will just strengthen JC's resolve to stay. So they are dgagging out the uncertainty and giving JC more time to rally his supporters. He will win - the Labour Party will lose. The PLP have screwed up ! They forgot the cardinal rules of timing & consequences.

[DaveR]

Corbyn this morning:

"Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Muslim friends are for those various self-styled Islamic States or organisations"

BBC this morning:

"A teenage Israeli girl has been stabbed to death in an attack at a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank.

Thirteen-year-old Hallel Yaffa Ariel was attacked while she slept inside her bedroom in Kiryat Arba.

A security guard who responded to the incident was wounded before the attacker was shot dead by other guards.

The Palestinian health ministry identified the assailant as 19-year-old Mohammed Tarayreh, from the nearby village of Bani Naim"

I wonder how many people support that part of his message.

[Lordship 516]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let me clarify - First Past The Post is a system

> which will never allow a hard-left party into

> power as it tends to give all power to one party,

> as witness the fact that we've only had one

> coalition outside of wartime.

>

> The losing side he to lick it's wounds and try

> again next time. Proportional Representation is

> the only way you get an accurate reflection of how

> the country really votes, but it brings its own

> troubles.

>

> So Labour is stuck being unable to function

> effectively as a hard left party because too many

> people disagree with them, enough in fact to keep

> them from power. Blair knew how to get elected,

> regardless of his faults. Corbyn feels that

> principle is more important. Well, fine. I have no

> argument with that, but I struggle to see how he

> thinks it will make him PM given the general

> feeling in the nation.

This is the central issue - it defines the fault line in the Labour Party & I [like you] disagree with JC but we have to understand his motivations. They [i think] appear to be looking at what they consider to be the big picture and a few elections don't matter much. They will stick to principle as opposed to Bliar's unprincipled pragmatism.

This will consign the Labour Party to opposition for years. The PLP made the wrong move & definitely at the wrong time.It will be their fault that fractures the Labour Party. JC is merely defending what he holds dear.

I don't condone it - like you I am but an observer.

C'est la vie.

[????]

at a push, a PUSH, you could justify the "the Netanyahu governemnt' bit. He's a nasty old trot with good manners, I've always suspected it by the company he keeps to be honest but this combined with the Momentum attack dogs threatening Labour MPs and Parliament in some kind of 1970s 'direct democracy' farce - I'm out and loud, he's as dangerous as the BNP/UKIP

[TE44]

DaveR Wrote:

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> Corbyn this morning:

>

> "Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for

> the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government

> than our Muslim friends are for those various

> self-styled Islamic States or organisations"

>

> BBC this morning:

>

> "A teenage Israeli girl has been stabbed to death

> in an attack at a Jewish settlement in the

> occupied West Bank.

> Thirteen-year-old Hallel Yaffa Ariel was attacked

> while she slept inside her bedroom in Kiryat

> Arba.

> A security guard who responded to the incident was

> wounded before the attacker was shot dead by other

> guards.

> The Palestinian health ministry identified the

> assailant as 19-year-old Mohammed Tarayreh, from

> the nearby village of Bani Naim"

>

> I wonder how many people support that part of his

> message.

What part of his message relates with the horror of the young girls death.

[DaveR]

He explicitly equates Israel (all of Israel - not just Zionists, or Netanyahu) with Islamic State on the same day as a 13 year old Israeli girl is murdered simply for being Jewish. What part of that do you not understand? Or are you 'confused' when it comes to Jews, like so many other Corbyn sympathisers?

[holloway]

Sadiq Khan would 've made a good Labour leader. He might be ruing becoming mayor now...

[TE44]

Dave r I wonder what context Corbyn said the above, I took it to be regarding racial tensions. How disrespectful of you to use this poor girls death as a way to knock Corbyn,

[DaveR]

"Dave r I wonder what context Corbyn said the above, I took it to be regarding racial tensions. How disrespectful of you to use this poor girls death as a way to knock Corbyn"

The context was (ironically enough) reporting the results of Labour's internal investigation into anti-semitism within the party. I have no respect for Corbyn - he has consistently been an apologist for violent anti-Semites and every now and then the mask slips. I have done nothing disrespectful in relation to the terrible crime reported today, but Corbyn has, and will continue to do so, every time he refers to his 'friends' in Hamas and Hezbollah.

[TE44]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-row-report-compares-israel-government-isis-islamic-states-a7110931.html

I think your perception of what he said (above) shows more about you to be honest.

[Loz]

I am no Corbyn fan (that will come as no surprise) and I don't think what he said was too controversial. But he did phrase it rather badly and, as an intro to the report into Labour anti-Semitism, was pretty badly timed and insensitive. He should have known there would be Jewish groups in the audience that would take badly to such a reference.

[DaveR]

Surprise - Corbyn has back-pedalled and said that his reference to "self-styled Islamic States or organisations" did not include the body universally known as "so called Islamic State".

But apparently this is all about me.

The issue is not whether Corbyn is antisemitic - it's whether his persistent worldview (Israel = oppressor therefore everybody else = victim) coupled with his current status gives active encouragement to open antisemitism and actual violence against Jews, just because they are Jews.

[rendelharris]

DaveR Wrote:

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> He explicitly equates Israel (all of Israel - not

> just Zionists, or Netanyahu) with Islamic State

He really didn't. He said that individual Jews (specifically referencing those in Britain) are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than individual Muslims are responsible for the actions of those who claim to run Islamic states. If I say that I don't hold individual members of the Labour party for Corbyn's mistakes, any more than I hold individual members of the Tory party responsible for Cameron's mistakes, does that mean I'm explicitly equating Corbyn with Cameron? No it doesn't.