Family & friends vs In/Out

[malumbu]

I was going to post to apologise for my long rant yesterday having just returned from France and a bit tired and emotional. But having returned to work found that none of the anger has subsided. Thinking back to my brother in law two of his kids worked in Europe in tourism in their 20s. What a selfish arse.

[Saffron]

> ...likewise calling someone

> illiterate, thick, xenophobic, racist without

> proof is totally abusive.

And what if one's family confirm one's long-standing suspicion that they really are thick, xenophobic, racists?

Blood is thicker than water, but not as thick as some racist xenophobes.

In response to news articles I posted on my social media regarding bias in reporting and the Referendum, SiL* put some unsolicted fantastically ignorant, fascist, factually incorrect statements about immigration on my wall. (Seems I've been in the UK so long, she's forgotten I am an immigrant... awkward?) Haha, she can f*** off.

*DH's step sister, seen her once in 10 yrs.

[midivydale]

Saffron, a classic example of "it is not so much you, it is the rest of them" so often used by racists and xenophobes. As if I am supposed to be grateful/proud/pleased that I am "ok" and not like "the rest of them".

[WorkingMummy]

Saffron - I completely understand. Thank you for speaking out and putting yourself in the firing line. I am sorry you have been abused.

A lot of the leave vote is about racism. People can deny it as much as they like. You cannot be any kind of apologist for UKIP or Gove without having a high degree of comfort with some very foul ideas. People in Middlesborough who don't give a xxxx about the EU, who have seen a marked increase in immigration from the Middle East in the last two years and who responded to that mostly with great humanity (churches with very poor congregations running English language courses, helping refugees with housing applications, that kind of thing) - communities like that who voted leave because austerity is hurting them - badly - and they feel they have nothing left to lose and this vote was an opportunity, to demand change, of some kind - none of that is a problem to me. I have no anger at all for them - only anger towards the government who put them in that position and was then arrogant enough to ask for their support and trust in a popular vote.

But people in the Home Counties, the south west, middle class people who voted leave and say that Farage is not racist - he just speaks plainly. They can fu(? off if they want me to believe this vote was not about jingoism, fear of "others" and yes racism.

[WorkingMummy]

midivydale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron, a classic example of "it is not so much

> you, it is the rest of them" so often used by

> racists and xenophobes. As if I am supposed to be

> grateful/proud/pleased that I am "ok" and not like

> "the rest of them".

Quite!

Campaigning in my street, I spoke to a very nice (I had thought) lady with a huge house and another in the country too, who was committed to voting leave because we don't need Europe (??) and there is too much immigration (clearly nothing to overcrowd her living space). When I said, really? My children's father is a migrant, my children are first generation British-European, and we live with a lovely nanny who is an EU migrant too ..., she said, "Oh, don't worry about them. They are white, and it's just a racist policy, isn't it? They won't deport your husband."

?!?? Point. Made.

(And she is very ignorant, because in fact our Swedish nanny is not white. Black people are born in Sweden too.)

[midivydale]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> midivydale Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Saffron, a classic example of "it is not so

> much

> > you, it is the rest of them" so often used by

> > racists and xenophobes. As if I am supposed to

> be

> > grateful/proud/pleased that I am "ok" and not

> like

> > "the rest of them".

>

> Quite!

>

> Campaigning in my street, I spoke to a very nice

> (I had thought) lady with a huge house and another

> in the country too, who was committed to voting

> leave because we don't need Europe (??) and there

> is too much immigration (clearly nothing to

> overcrowd her living space). When I said, really?

> My children's father is a migrant, my children are

> first generation British-European, and we live

> with a lovely nanny who is an EU migrant too ...,

> she said, "Oh, don't worry about them. They are

> white, and it's just a racist policy, isn't it?

> They won't deport your husband."

>

> ?!?? Point. Made.

>

> (And she is very ignorant, because in fact our

> Swedish nanny is not white. Black people are born

> in Sweden too.)

FFS!! Lost for words

[Jenny1]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> People in Middlesborough who don't

> give a xxxx about the EU, who have seen a marked

> increase in immigration from the Middle East in

> the last two years and who responded to that

> mostly with great humanity (churches with very

> poor congregations running English language

> courses, helping refugees with housing

> applications, that kind of thing) - communities

> like that who voted leave because austerity is

> hurting them - badly - and they feel they have

> nothing left to lose and this vote was an

> opportunity, to demand change, of some kind -

> none of that is a problem to me. I have no anger

> at all for them - only anger towards the

> government who put them in that position and was

> then arrogant enough to ask for their support and

> trust in a popular vote.

>

>

I couldn't agree more WM. I have friends who've worked on projects like that in Middlesborough.

And yes. Cameron and his team are to blame for not addressing inequality in this country and not understanding what the results of that would be. One result was the outcome of this vote - which many in deprived areas perceived as a chance to deliver a 'kick in the pants' to the rich and the ruling class.

Tragically a smaller UK, outside the EU, is going to be a much crueler place for the poor and disenfranchised.

What we need now is a coalition of opposition parties united behind addressing those issues of inequality and keeping us in the EU. I haven't given up hope on that - just because someone directs you towards the edge of a cliff, doesn't mean you're honour bound to jump off. I - and others - are looking for ways of getting that message through to MPs so they have the courage to take charge of this situation.

[WorkingMummy]

100%. I joined a political party for the first time in my life this week. Was torn between green and lib dem. Went with lib dem, but long for a new progressive alliance between those parties, the SNP and any labour MPs who still have their credibility.

There is also a petition out there written by the greens which you can sign.

https://action.greenparty.org.uk

[Jenny1]

WM. Thank you. Love it. Signed it. Shared it. Can I suggest you start a new thread called something like 'new opposition alliance', with this petition link as the starting point?

[WorkingMummy]

Done. Thanks Jenny1.

[Seabag]

With hindsight, I'm sure some of the feelings of at what's happened in this country have been wrapped into some deep and buried feelings we've possibly harboured. I'd hoped to think this bubble we live in actually existed all over, but in truth it doesn't.

I moved here from a seaside town on the south-coast and I'd grown up in the countryside and some of my education had been at boarding school, some in Europe too. And as I dig into my thoughts of all those places, it reveals what I'd always known and observed. All those places have a margin of tolerance, often about class, money, gender, sexuality and if you're not born & bred there, then where you're from. I'd felt a little of it, as I'd moved often. It's often linked to families, schools, clubs, towns, villages and the likes.

And there's a language and a mindset there, top to bottom and filled often in-between. It's about who fits in & who doesn't. I've heard it in pubs deep in the countryside, after a hunt (and all classes are represented here) I've heard it at Rugby/Golf/Sailing/Working/Social clubs and it holds in the air too. Not alway like rain, but often there's a dampness of it. It can be racism, sexism, class and just about anything, but much about what 'those people' are not, how they're different/can't/don't fit in.

But it's often very very subtle, almost silent or supported with a gesture. But rarely in your face, though I've seen and heard it many many times. And often these are very nice decent and loving people, they just can't see that what they say and how they see it is bigoted/racist/narrow minded. And when you point it out, they're shocked and often offended. Though if you do it often enough, you become 'Oh, you're one of them!". I've heard defences of the most comedy kind "But I go to the curry house, I'm not a racist'

I know why I came to London to live, it was as much to get away from the mindset, as to explore new kind of life, to have a healthy anonymity. Living in London isn't easy (not in the beginning), it makes you confront many things, and many people. Which in turn is interesting, challenging and very different in comparison to the life I'd led before. And yes, I've had to detox some of the attitudes and ways of seeing things that stuck to me from before. And maybe that personal journey in itself is what makes you more tolerant, when you meet others who move here, you get some of what that's like. It's a work in progress, one that needs checking often

Which brings me back to the here and now. I'm glad I voted as I did, though it also challenged me to see others I know, family and friends vote otherwise. But I look at where they are or where they're from and I get it. Some are still down on the coast, some come from nearer by, the Bromley fringes, where "going up London" is the way you describe a day out. And those areas are little to no different to much of this country. My only concern is when 'we' by nature of living in London automatically assume we're OK, our tolerant way is that we live 'cheek by jowl' in this Metropolis. But our prejudice and other less savoury aspects of our mindsets, still need to be explored, less they sit seething under a veneer of an outwardly constructed tolerant face. And then in the quite of a voting booth, we silently express our real feeling on a ballot paper.

I've been here in London for about 25 years, though I'd worked up here for 10 years before that. It's the longest I've stayed in any one place, it fascinates me endlessly, it's home, I've had a family here, cried & loved and seen so much, it is home.

I'm not going to change, other than I'll be as upfront and straight forwards when maybe before I'd shut up to keep the peace. Family is family, you don't have to like them. And to shed some flimsy friends, can be but a good thing.

We are better united in the next moves forwards, no matter how we got here, we must go forwards with as much strength as possible. Confront pre justice and all that entails, both from within and around us

[WorkingMummy]

Seabag, you make really important points, with a lot of insight.

There is some progressive political commentary in the US which echoes your thoughts (in far less personal or careful terms probably). You may have to grit your way though the first 60 seconds of the woman on the right from LA saying that she just "doesn't get it". But I think this footage has some value in explaining where Brexit comes from, and why it is so self-sabotaging.

[Jenny1]

Very nicely put Seabag!

I see part of what you're expressing as a respect for the need for small, isolated or disenfranchised communities (particularly ones that feel 'embattled') to preserve their own identity. I completely understand and support that.

What seems so sad and ironic is that actually Spain, France and Italy have shown that it's easier to preserve regional and local identity and prosperity within the EU.

The tragedy is that that message hasn't got across in the UK.

[Seabag]

I'm not sure Spain or France are any more joined up. Spain often describes itself as 5 countries in one. And France don't date ask the question.

However, we are here and we got here is one of the great questions. How we go forwards is the ultimate challenge now

So I'm going onwards with that in mind

[Jenny1]

I agree that Spain and France are more regionally divided than we are. As we're all aware, I'm sure, Catalonia would much rather be part of the EU than of Spain.

And absolutely - if the French were asked to vote tomorrow on EU membership - they'd chose to leave. But that doesn't alter the fact that their regions and localities have benefited massively from membership. It seems that most people are quite capable of holding at least two mutually exclusive ideas in their heads simultaneously.

But I do deeply regret that the message hasn't got through in this country that local and regional prosperity is strong within the EU.

I too am looking forwards, but I'm also doing all I can to make sure that, where choices still exist, good ones are made. And that no open door is closed prematurely.

[????]

..but it's not (local & regional prosperity)

bits of Spain, southern Italy & all of Greece are at near catastrophic levels of poverty/unemployment and opportunity

The EU needs reform badly, I just wish we'd made a better and more positive case for reform when we were in it and stayed there to help fix it.

[Jenny1]

I quite agree on the need for deep, wide-ranging EU reform. And yes, it's only from the inside that one can influence that.

While I can't claim to be a macro-economic expert, I'd have said that the crash of 2008 was as much to blame for the current economic woes of much of Europe as EU membership. And it's arguable that the effects of that crash would have been more severe without it.

But I now fear I may have hijacked a thread dedicated to personal reflections with other issues - so apologies for that.

[dirac]

I'm from a small village near Weymouth (<450 people and everyone knows everyone). I can guess with probably 99% certainty that most people I know down there voted out. Friends, family, pub acquaintances, the lot; except the people that have left dorset for a time and come back.

And I think Seabag has hit the nail on the head: a lot of people just have no idea that their views and opinions are antiquated and quite narrow minded. It almost unanimous across all demographics; may not be voiced openly; but certainly affects things like votes and how they consider 'foreigners and grockles'. Never to their face or openly they'll say anything, but as Seabag pointed out: "And then in the quite of a voting booth, we silently express our real feeling on a ballot paper."

I have to deal with this, and will for a time, get "oh you're one of them vote in ones/radicals/utopians/idealists" in the pub from people I grew up with and like and try and grit and smile and nod etc because as soon as you voice your opinion and offer counter argument, you become "preachy" etc. I don't want to fall out with them, cos it's a damn small village but it's going to be tough!!

[midivydale]

Seabag, that is a really well written post.

[heartblock]

Thanks Seabag a really good post. I have a love/hate relationship with London, it can be a hard place to live at times, but I love the general tolerance of others that I haven't witnessed anywhere else.

We were planning to move near Ludlow and lead a different life, this is still a long term plan, but we have both decided to stay in London a bit longer now.

The leave vote has almost made it ok for people to express there underlying racist and xenophobic views. My friend who is Portuguese/Brazilian works in a famous hospital near Cambridge and since the leave vote he has been told to 'go back home' by staff and patients. He has phoned his contacts in Australia and is leaving in December, when he does the hospital will either have to pay for an expensive agency specialist or cancel his list of 30 patients undergoing treatment a week.

[Cassius]

What seems so sad and ironic is that actually Spain, France and Italy have shown that it's easier to preserve regional and local identity and prosperity within the EU.

Small town Italy (at least Central and Southern Italy) is very introverted - you're a foreigner if you are from a different town let alone a different region or country! The EU matters very little to them - their governance is firstly, secondly and thirdly local - but then prosperity isn't an expression that can be used in those areas outside of distinctly tourist areas.

[malumbu]

I'm from a former market town, now part of a conurbation. House prices and the local economy are reasonably healthy. There are a few but not many pockets of urban poor. Fruit and veg picking when I was young was by kids and settled travelers. Assume that this will now be by Eastern Europeans. It is conservative with a small and large C. A pretty area with views out to Wales and the South West. Excellent transport links

Yet the high street is dead, market long since gone, so to many of the pubs. I've seen links to Facebook groups 'celebrating' how dull the place is and others to some sort of 'reclaim the flag of St George' - not quite EDL.

It was 60/40 Brexit. I really don't have any connection with the town of my upbringing any more and feel ashamed of it. The EU has nothing to do with the sate of the place.

Can anyone convince me otherwise?

[JoeLeg]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm from a former market town, now part of a

> conurbation. House prices and the local economy

> are reasonably healthy. There are a few but not

> many pockets of urban poor. Fruit and veg picking

> when I was young was by kids and settled

> travelers. Assume that this will now be by

> Eastern Europeans. It is conservative with a

> small and large C. A pretty area with views out to

> Wales and the South West. Excellent transport

> links

>

> Yet the high street is dead, market long since

> gone, so to many of the pubs. I've seen links to

> Facebook groups 'celebrating' how dull the place

> is and others to some sort of 'reclaim the flag of

> St George' - not quite EDL.

>

> It was 60/40 Brexit. I really don't have any

> connection with the town of my upbringing any more

> and feel ashamed of it. The EU has nothing to do

> with the sate of the place.

>

> Can anyone convince me otherwise?

No, because this is exactly the point.

So many problems in this nation are our own doing. The discussion is so wide ranging as to belong elsewhere, but the simple fact is that globalisation and the decline of traditional industries is not solely the fault of the EU. I concede the point that it is contributory, however we live now in a very inter-connected world and the behaviour of China, for one, is of far more concern.

But the inhabitants feel abandoned, and personally I blame successive governments for not doing enough to regenerate such areas. I do understand how they've come to vote like that, but when nothing has changed in ten or twenty years, who will they hold accountable?

[malumbu]

I've been thinking further on this. The reason that the butcher, baker and candlestick maker shops aren't there is because people didn't shop in them. They'd prefer to go to warehouse shops (we had a cracking sports shop and a cracking camping shop in the 80s).

On globalisation why have a camping shop when you can buy a whole Glasonbury camping kit for ?20 from Halfords and then dump it at the end of the day. Made in a sweat shop but do the masses care? Me I'd rather to to Finches for decent outdoor stuff, but it doesn't stop me from buying the cheap stuff from Decathlon so I am no angel..

France kept its tobaconists, local boulangeries etc due to proectionionism. Would we be prepared to pay the price for this? I doubt it. So, yes, it goes well beyond the EU but people get the high street that they deserve and voting leave aint going to magically change things.

I was in Rochester High Street today which is quite lovely. But that and the voting of North Kent is for another day!