Increased xenophobia/racism

[WorkingMummy]

Jeremy, my-ex's country does not give our spousal visas that allow you to live elsewhere in EU. Anyway I am not married or co-habiting. My marriage broke down. But my ex stayed in the country to live around the corner from me and the kids. Now he is threatened with ejection - listen to May if you can't believe it - and anyhow his job is moving to France or possibly Belgium(not his country of birth either). The kids can follow but I can't.

As for his status here, eu and efta citizens are not permitted to apply for residence - they have it. Citizenship is a possibility but it is 1) expensive and 2) not guaranteed. My ex has had periods back in his country within the last 5 years which - although punctuated with lots of visits to us - may disqualify him.

This whole sh\tty business creates uncertainties and anguish which no one brought up in this country ever thought they would face. Believe me, I and people like me are working damn hard to secure our families cohesion right now and it is far from the breeze you imply.

I don't mean to be rude - only factual. You have no idea.

[Jeremy]

WM - I'm sure he could stay here (if he wanted) via a "family of a settled person" visa.

[midivydale]

Jeremy, I mean this kindly but really, this is not a walk in the park situation. The truth is that no one mnows on what premises we are able to stay in this country. That is a fact. People say "I am sure this" and "it is impossible it will ever come to that" but really the truth is somewhat very different indeed.

[Jeremy]

Yep, I don't have a crystal ball. But I am assuming that EU citizens would - in the worst case scenario - be subject to our current rules for non-EU citizens. I don't think that's wildly speculative... others may disagree.

[WorkingMummy]

Midivydale is right.

Forgive me, but I am not counting on good sense or compassion to prevail anywhere. Especially if May is PM. Her record on migration - especially as regards mixed-nationality families, is appalling. And her words of late have been far from reassuring.

What people in my and Midivydale's situation crave - and had until Bexit - is security to make plans beyond tomorrow.

And no - you can't get any kind of visa or residence permit today if today you are an EU citizen because today the UK is in the EU. Both my ex and my nanny have requested this type of reassurance within the last ten days and have been rejected on the grounds that they are EU citizens.

You also continue to overlook the loss of EU citizenship to individual (British) members of mixed European families.

[Alan Medic]

midivydale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No it really doesn't, at all. I do think it is

> offensive as well as ignorant. It was edited which

> you clearly could not respect, as I simply do not

> have it in me to go backwards and forwards to

> explain HOW I found it offensive. Hence, the edit.

Ignorant of what? You seem to know what is going to happen before it happens, if it ever does.I do not believe people will be kicked out of the country. Do I know for certain? I don't. How do you know? As for jobs being re-located, well if that happens it will be down to the idiots who voted for it and whoever pushes the button on Article 50. You know what. I bet no one pushes the button as parliament will over rule the result. They are bound to get something right occasionally.

[WorkingMummy]

Jeremy - there are affordability-of-dependence checks on those types of visas too. Which many people are worried about and may not pass. Mays record of heartlessness in that regard whilst HS was awful.

Anyhow, how do you think it even feels to suddenly have to think this way about your own family - in your own country.

[midivydale]

Yes quite,

It is really not as simple as saying "I am sure you get to stay", the problem is on what conditions can I stay?

If my partner (cohabiting for 15 years) leaves me or dies, then can I stay?

If I lose my job (not entirely unlikely, I work for a European Bank) then can I stay?

If I have another baby, then am made redundant (not unheard of in city banking) then can I stay?

My Swedish father has a heart condition, he will need care very soon. Both his daughters live and work in the UK, when the day comes that he needs care, can he come here so that I can care for him?

If not, and I have to "go home" (to a country I have not lived in for 20 years) and care for him, can my son's father then join me?

The list of scenarios are endless and at the moment we do not have the answers to anyone of these.

[WorkingMummy]

Exactly. It is about encouraging people to build family arrangements on citizenships that you then suddenly strip away.

[Lordship 516]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeremy - there are affordability-of-dependence

> checks on those types of visas too. Which many

> people are worried about and may not pass. Mays

> record of heartlessness in that regard whilst HS

> was awful.

>

> Anyhow, how do you think it even feels to suddenly

> have to think this way about your own family - in

> your own country.

In app of this mess it is the uncertainty that is distressing people, further exacerbated by there being no plan for anything.

Political uncertainty made worse by politicians squabbling & a timeline for resolution not even in sight.

Economic uncertainty mainly due to political inaction & deteriorating conditions.

Social uncertainty further fueled by destabilizing statements from the very people who ought to promote stability.

My wife & step-daughter are Chinese with indefinite leave to remain and now they have more residency security that most of the EU citizens that are in the UK. Next year they can apply for citizenship if they wish and as they both have passed the 'Life in the UK' test already, they can become citizens more or less for the asking.

It would be a great injustice to EU citizens if their status was to be held any less than this.

[Jeremy]

Like I say, I am making assumptions. That EU citizens settled here for any length of time are not going to get booted out. That EU residents are not going to be subject to arbitrary immigration rules, more stringent than current non-EU rules.

I'm not denying that there is a lot of uncertainty, and things are going to get complicated and difficult for many.

[Jeremy]

I'm in a similar position to lordship, and concur with his final sentence - "It would be a great injustice to EU citizens if their status was to be held any less than this". Actually I'd say it's almost unthinkable...

[Lordship 516]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Like I say, I am making assumptions. That EU

> citizens settled here for any length of time are

> not going to get booted out. That EU residents are

> not going to be subject to arbitrary immigration

> rules, more stringent than current non-EU rules.

>

> I'm not denying that there is a lot of

> uncertainty, and things are going to get

> complicated and difficult for many.

Currently one of those rules is that if you currently have no visa to live in the UK [like a spouse visa] you have to apply for your visa from your home country and cannot return to the UK until that is granted - a lot of grief & uncertainty.

[DaveR]

"As for his status here, eu and efta citizens are not permitted to apply for residence - they have it. Citizenship is a possibility but it is 1) expensive and 2) not guaranteed. My ex has had periods back in his country within the last 5 years which - although punctuated with lots of visits to us - may disqualify him."

I don't think this is accurate. The normal rules of 5 year residency apply to EU/EEA nationals provided they have been exercising free movement rights i.e. working or studying. The UK govt was and still is prohibited from requiring those nationals to obtain evidence of entitlement, but it can be obtained and cannot be refused if the criteria are met. Periods outside the UK will not necessarily preclude the right having been obtained. Citizenship is not guaranteed but there is a strong presumption in favour where there is already a right of permanent residence.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/how-to-make-a-permanent-residence-application/

"an EEA national from outside the UK will automatically qualify for permanent residence after five years of living in the UK while exercising their Treaty rights and qualifying under the Citizens? Directive. If the EEA national choses to do so, he or she can apply for a permanent residence card as evidence of possession of this right."

[Lazero]

I would definitely recommend applying for a card certifying permanent residence - as mentioned in DaveR's post. You can find the form and guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-document-certifying-permanent-residence-or-permanent-residence-card-form-eea-pr

It's very long, and it's a pain to get all the paperwork together (and to work out every single day you're out of the UK), but it seems to be the closest thing you can get to reassurance about your status. I believe it is similar to indefinite leave to remain (ILR), so they shouldn't be able to just retract it later. You must have this card if you want to apply for full citizenship (though you may be OK just with PR - no one knows for sure!).

If you haven't been here 5 years then I'm not sure what you can do. And as midivydale says - the bigger worry for me is my parents. Both me and my sister have lived here for a very long time, they were going to join us post-referendum if the vote had gone the other way. Now I'm not sure they'll ever be able to join us.

[midivydale]

The permanent residence card is ok - for as long as we remain in the EU, it is questionable what value it will hold without EU membership. Citizenship seems the only way forward for many. Let us all just find the ?2k needed and get on with it hey.

[Saffron]

Get PR as quick as you can. The longer you hold it, the stronger an argument you can make under the Human Rights Act* for right to remain/ citizenship, particularly for families.

PR should be independent of an EU break, but there's no guarantee at this point. Go for citizenship as soon as you're able.

Though we're not affected bychanging immigration rules, DH and I are revisiting the idea of emigrating... just seen a job in NZ. Hmmm.

xx

*as long as it lasts :-/

[Saffron]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/06/boris-johnson-to-back-labour-motion-on-eu-migrants

"Labour motion on EU migrants 'right to remain' passes Commons vote:

Motion backed by Boris Johnson passed by 245 to two but is non-binding and has no effect on government policy."

Still a step in the right direction.

[shaunag]

While the UK is leaving the EU, the rest of the EU is not. For the UK to boot out EU nationals would be a breach of the ECHR article 8, for as long as it remains in force. Similarly, if, and I highly doubt it would happen, but if the 'bargaining' of citizens came about, the rest of the EU would be in breach of ECHR article 8 if it didn't act in defence of its citizens right to a family life (albeit) in the UK? If any such negotiations happened, I'm confident Europe would concede for the right of EU nationals to remain. I can't see the ECHR being undermined on this one. It is too important. I'm not an EU lawyer but if someone else is can you please explain how or on what grounds the EU could deviate from the ECHR? That aside, the NHS would collapse if EU nationals are kicked out...

this situation is totally unacceptable for European families in the uk, and I worry for the country with Theresa May likely to be next prime minister when she clearly holds her own career higher than citizens living in the UK. Hopefully there will be an election and she has already lost the vote from EU nationals,as well as the remainers...

[WorkingMummy]

It is very comforting to read the solidarity expressed by everyone on this. I have felt half mad at times, because people around me - who I know to be kind and fair - have struggled to get how this feels. And that is very disorientating - because for families like mine this is seismic, and you end up feeling like you must be on a different planet from people you felt so connected to, two weeks ago.

I found the overwhelming majority with which last night's vote was carried some comfort. But I can't escape the sense of dread that May engenders. As I say, her record on handling these types of situations (families with various different immigration statuses) as Home Sec showed a heartlessness that echoed Thatcher in the worst sense. Also until about one week ago she expressly wished to leave the ECHR, removing my family's article 8 rights that shaunag so sensibly cites.

The most stupid thing about all this that it is truly is inconceivable that the EU will take this reciprocal stance, for the Human Rights reasons shaunag states, and also because the EU has said consistently - for months - that the reason it will insist that the UK triggers article 50, and actually exits before it even considers talking about re-entry/trade deals etc, is because (as well as that being what the Lisbon treaty requires) it REFUSES to allow its citizens living here to be used as chips in trade talks. .... Which means it is pointless, absolutely mindless, for May to "preserve" her negotiating position in this way. There is no bargain to be struck. The EU will not expel UK citizens and if May threatens to do that to EU citizens it will bring her no advantage in trade talks. Whereas if the government now committed not to do this awful thing it is contemplating, exit talks would be amicable and families and businesses built on eu migration could sleep easy again.

All of which makes me think - May's position is not pragmatic - as she claims; it is ideological. Which is terrifying. Not just for me but for all of us.

But then she was the most heartless HS in recent history and she did want to leave the ECHR....so perhaps this is no surprise.

Dark times.

[????]

I have empathy with your position it must be very unsettling.

But, rationally looking at it,there is almost no chance of EU citizens here not getting residency - based on need, political support (which is almost universal, including among Brexiters). I think you are getting yourself very upset about something that is extremely unlikely to be happen and putting yourself through enormous, unnecessarily stress.

It is a remote possibility, but it's not good to worry about remote possibilities too much in life.

I am really just trying to be helpful and supportive here, not diminishing the upset it's clearly causing you.

[WorkingMummy]

I fully accept that quids and appreciate it.

Then why can't May - or the government for that matter - just say it?

[WorkingMummy]

Please would everyone who feels empathy for families like mine - and who appreciates the value of free movement upon which the EU (and plenty of people's lives within it) is based, please consider this petition?

It is thoughtful in its terms and its message is important.

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-a-formal-apology-for-david-cameron-s-statement-about-migration?recruiter=561376202&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=des-md-share_petition-no_msg&recuruit_context=fb_share_mention_control&fb_ref=Default

[DaveR]

It's worth looking back at what Theresa May actually said - she said that guaranteeing PR for any EU national who was in the UK at the point of formal exit risked creating a perverse incentive for large numbers to come now, which in the heated situation post Brexit vote might make things worse. It was a classic Hoe Office response from the minister who has been repeatedly burned over immigration issues.

She has subsequently said that reciprocal residency rights for UK and EU nationals respectively is an obvious issue to be resolved in exit negotiations, but I'm not aware of anything that has been said to suggest the UK stance is likely to be anything other than favourable to EU nationals resident here.

I understand the psychological shock, but the likelihood of deportations, families being split up etc. is vanishingly small.

It may be worth adding that my wife is a national of a non EU country where neither I nor the kids have any residency rights, and which doesn't permit its citizens to have dual nationality. She has family there and we have quite strong ties. It's a pain, but it's really a practical issue that requires a bit of thought and planning. For EU nationals in the UK or with UK ties it's not going to be worse than that, and likely to be much easier.

[uncleglen]

Interesting programme...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k7m4x/panorama-why-we-voted-to-leave-britain-speaks