This is now a full blown constitutional crisis....

[Henry_17]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Inflation was an average of 9% for a start in

> 1973.

Thank heavens CPI no longer reflects shelter costs!

[Jules-and-Boo]

blahblahblah With every day that passes, it becomes increasingly clear how we've been led to the abyss by a small group of privileged boys who have decided to play Russian roulette with all of our livelihoods for the end game of an Eton power struggle.

that's been the case for a long time, but we can only vote to like one or the other - and we haven't liked them for a long time. Which is now painfully apparent.

[DulwichFox]

Louisa..

My decision was partly based on the Lies and exagerated scare mongering of David Cameron and George Osborne.

It was disgraceful ..

Effectivly the ?350m is correct. It's like your wages.. You get what is left after Tax. National Insr. & stoppages.

The ?350 is a figure that is ring fenced. We are then told where we can spend some of it. There is about ?61m left

which is like a fee for Brussels to do the paper work.

Thats it in its simplest form..

I did not want this in 1975.. This was the 2nd chance.. this WAS the second Referendum..

Do not feel bad about it.

Foxy

[Blah Blah]

And ?100bn wiped off shares instantly - what a false economy that was Fox.

[Azira]

It isn't correct Foxy. This has been demonstrated time and time again - the amount does not take into account the rebate we receive (so it can even be claimed that we paid that amount out) nor the funding various regions got.

Even if the figure was correct, where we won't have that money anyway as your decision has just screwed our biggest industry in this country.

I'm pleased for you if you've got enough private wealth that you're going to be insulated from the economic fallout and assume you're not reliant on a pension, but the rest of us are in serious trouble now.

[Blah Blah]

And just to add Fox, that pension schemes are the bigger investors in the markets. So every day of losses over the next however many years of uncertainty is going to blow the cost of EU membership out of the water by a mile. There won't be any money for anything.

[Jules-and-Boo]

It's really not fair to call people racist Joe. In fact it's downright out of order. I doubt anyone cares what colour your wife is - but than you for letting us know.

Emotive or not, it's just a reflection on yourselves how you treat other people - there are plenty of insults / put downs which we could all rise above.

It is shocking how poor our government is - but if taht is actually a surprise to anyone, you probably needed a wake up call.... there are many people who have noticed it.

Cameron quits to teach Boris a lesson.... how puerile. Absolutely pathetic behaviour.

Do you really think that sniping at each other is going to make anything better - except perhaps how you feel yourself?

If - yes, If - we had a governemnt with spine then leading change would be a better story - we would have direction and then some expectation of what we would strive for in our global trade deals. Change - at any level - is daunting. Let alone when you don't knw where you're going. It doesn't mean that it has to be bad - but it's a very basic thing to know where you want to go.

There's a number of people on here who I just thank God I don't have disagreeing with me on a day to day basis. I hope you don't behave like this at home.

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa..

>

> My decision was partly based on the Lies and

> exagerated scare mongering of David Cameron and

> George Osborne.

> It was disgraceful ..

And the Leave campaign was any better? Well, I suppose we can all choose the liars we prefer in that case. I prefer those that do not share a bed with racists and xenophobia. Please note I am emphatically NOT accusing you or anyone else of those prejudices, only pointing out that I think the Leave campaign allowed certain groups who do think that way to think they were getting what they wanted - foreigners out.

>

> Effectivly the ?350m is correct. It's like your

> wages.. You get what is left after Tax. National

> Insr. & stoppages.

>

> The ?350 is a figure that is ring fenced. We are

> then told where we can spend some of it. There is

> about ?61m left

> which is like a fee for Brussels to do the paper

> work.

>

> Thats it in its simplest form.

Can you provide me with a link that explains that in more detail? The Leave campaign were pretty clearly insinuating that the NHS could have that money, a claim they have now openly backtracked on. I'd be interested to see how it is essentially correct.

>

> I did not want this in 1975.. This was the 2nd

> chance.. this WAS the second Referendum..

>

> Do not feel bad about it.

Fair enough there, and if you've always felt this way them I respect that. But the world has changed a lot since then. The EU has many problems, and there's areas where I suspect you and I would agree, but there is more that links us than divides us, and I feel it's a terrible error to turn our back completely.

It's also opened the door to the extreme right wing, who were are going to hear more of if/when Boris reneges on Article 50.

[Blah Blah]

"The EU has many problems, and there's areas where I suspect you and I would agree, but there is more that links us than divides us, and I feel it's a terrible error to turn our back completely. "

This is exactly why I voted remain.

"It's also opened the door to the extreme right wing, who were are going to hear more of if/when Boris reneges on Article 50."

Completely agree. It's a step back to the 70's for the UK, in more ways than one.

[Azira]

Cameron quit because he cannot tenably negotiate this situation and to give us the widest range of options.

And I completely agree with you about they way some people have behaved on here Jules. For instance, making sneery comments about the "little racists have had their say". Or suggesting to someone whose partner is now at real risk of being the target of racist attacks now the facists feel their position has been given legitimacy that no-one cares about her ethnicity.

There are a lot of people who have conducted themselves in a snipy, sneery fashion. Frankly, considering the stakes of this decision, I don't think its that surprising that feeling is running high.

[JoeLeg]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's really not fair to call people racist Joe. In

> fact it's downright out of order. I doubt anyone

> cares what colour your wife is - but than you for

> letting us know.

Excuse me, but exactly who did I openly call racist? And if you want a open debate then drop the sarcasm.

> Emotive or not, it's just a reflection on

> yourselves how you treat other people - there are

> plenty of insults / put downs which we could all

> rise above.

No it's not. It's a reflection of how scared my wife is now.

>

> It is shocking how poor our government is - but if

> taht is actually a surprise to anyone, you

> probably needed a wake up call.... there are many

> people who have noticed it.

>

> Cameron quits to teach Boris a lesson.... how

> puerile. Absolutely pathetic behaviour.

>

I completely agree. Didn't say I liked what he's done.

> Do you really think that sniping at each other is

> going to make anything better - except perhaps how

> you feel yourself?

I'm not sniping at anyone. I will defend how I feel and how my wife feels. If I get worked up its because I'm not willing to tolerate people telling me that this isn't something I should be worried about.

>

> If - yes, If - we had a governemnt with spine then

> leading change would be a better story - we would

> have direction and then some expectation of what

> we would strive for in our global trade deals.

> Change - at any level - is daunting. Let alone

> when you don't knw where you're going. It doesn't

> mean that it has to be bad - but it's a very basic

> thing to know where you want to go.

>

> There's a number of people on here who I just

> thank God I don't have disagreeing with me on a

> day to day basis. I hope you don't behave like

> this at home.

Well you don't know me, and I don't know you, so I suppose it's easy for both of us to make assumptions about the other. So consider this; I am very angry about the direction my country is going, and not willing to let the future of our children be used as a political tool. I'm not sure exactly why I've said that you object too, but I assure you there are plenty like me who feel that this is one political machination too far.

[WorkingMummy]

FFS!

It's the first time in 40+ years that any P.M.

has had to make any decision for themselves..

Brussels has done that for them...

BOLLOCKS BOLLOCKS BOLLOCKS.

The PM makes decisions every BLOODY DAY. The EU regulates certain aspects of commercial, labour and environmental life because it's a SINGLE BLOODY MARKET

To name 5 randomn things out of a million.

The PM or his government led by him can decide:

- new measures to academise all schools.

- effectively to abolish legal aid.

- to change junior doctors working contracts.

- to cut everyone's benefits.

- to go to bloody war or bomb bloody Syria.

He CAN'T abolish your two year consumer protection gaurntee, cut the EU's funding of certain relatively small things (like broadband provision to villages of a few tens of people in Cornwall), re-permit gender discrimination in the work place, or allow outdated and dangerous lorry cabs which pose threats to cyclists and pedestrians to be made contrary to EU standards, (although UKIP tried their hardest to allow him to do exactly that by voting against certain vehicle safety improvements proposed in the Euro Parliament a few years back.)

But he RUNS the bloody country.

And you do, have NO clue. Most of the country bloody doesn't.

"What is the EU?" A popular internet search on FRIDAY 24th June.

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> WorkingMummy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> It't the first time in 40+ years that any P.M.

> has had to make any decision for themselves..

> Brussels has done that for them...

>

> and

>

> No prime minister has done anything for 40+

> years without EU say so????

>

> are not the same thing..

>

> Under the E.U. the rules were laid down and the

> any UK P.M had there hands tied.

> Now they have to think for themselves. Makes it

> more difficult . So Cameron resigns.

>

>

> Foxy.

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Effectivly the ?350m is correct. It's like your wages.. You get what is left after Tax. National

> Insr. & stoppages.

Foxy, even Farage has admitted the ?350m/week figure was a bare-faced lie.

And your analogy is wrong. It's more like getting 40% off a ?1000 television, and then telling everyone you paid ?1000 for your TV. It's a lie.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Joe, I wasn't actually pointing all of that directly at you. I was speaking generally, about some of the posts on here.

It's not hard to scroll through them and see who is being a bit out of order.

Ithink we've even started swearing at each other now (nice work WM)

[Azira]

Jules, that is disingenuous in the extreme. You even made specific reference to no-one caring what colour his wife was.

Before you start having a go at other people behaving badly, you might like to wind-in your own pot shots.

[JoeLeg]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Joe, I wasn't actually pointing all of that

> directly at you. I was speaking generally, about

> some of the posts on here.

>

> It's not hard to scroll through them and see who

> is being a bit out of order.

>

> Ithink we've even started swearing at each other

> now (nice work WM)

Ok, apologies then for going off at you.

But I honestly feel this is unprecedented territory, and we do have racists coming out of the woodwork, and this time the politicians - on both sides - have gone too far. I'm riled up, we're all riled up.

If I come across as something that the website will bleep out, then I apologise - I'm generally not. But on this matter I feel truly angry. I'm not sure how to deal with it.

[Louisa]

Boris and Gove should have been coming out jubilant and optimistic following Thursday's vote if they genuinely believed in it. The sad fact is, Boris woke up absolutely bricking it because he realised there was no plan A nevermind a plan B, something Cameron had been privy too from day one, hence his genuine anxiety about a possible brexit. All those empty half hearted promises surrounding extra funding for the NHS and immigration controls have now fallen by the way side.

The political ambitions of one MP have allowed for the entire nation to be put at unprecedented risk, a punt, a gamble on the unknown. It is truly sickening that nothing we have been promised has or will likely ever come to pass. In the meantime Boris, given his parting gift of invoking article 50 by a departing Cameron, is now utterly a rabbit in the headlights not knowing whether to turn left or right.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

The leave campaign only started to pull ahead in polls when they switched from trying to win the debate on economy, to immigration and funding for the NHS. You can now see why they couldn't win the debate on economy - because people who listen to those arguments don't like 'maybes' - they want certainty.

[uncleglen]

There is a plan- it's all laid out in the EU rules and regulations etc....since we signed up to the EU (and Lisbon-what a con...that's when the rot set in...) we signed up to the rules about the exit. It will all be there- there are enough academics involved in EU law and politics that there will be no shortage of consultants.

While all that is going on over 2 years or so, the Government will be able to formulate a strategy.

[Azira]

No, that's the mechanism for achieving exit Glen. I can assure you that those of us with expertise in EU law don't know what is happening next either.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a plan- it's all laid out in the EU rules

> and regulations etc....since we signed up to the

> EU (and Lisbon-what a con...that's when the rot

> set in...) we signed up to the rules about the

> exit. It will all be there- there are enough

> academics involved in EU law and politics that

> there will be no shortage of consultants.

> While all that is going on over 2 years or so, the

> Government will be able to formulate a strategy.

All that is fine if they trigger Article 50, which is what you are describing.

If that's what's happening - either now or later - then they need to come out and say it. Because that's what you voted for.

[DulwichFox]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Effectivly the ?350m is correct. It's like your

> wages.. You get what is left after Tax. National

> > Insr. & stoppages.

>

> Foxy, even Farage has admitted the ?350m/week

> figure was a bare-faced lie.

>

> And your analogy is wrong. It's more like getting

> 40% off a ?1000 television, and then telling

> everyone you paid ?1000 for your TV. It's a lie.

Dont see the connection.. but along the same lines

Its like paying ?53 ffor a t-shirt marked down from ?75.00* and thinking you have saved ?22.00

when its only worth ?6.00

*Based on actual sale prices from Lordship Lane out let over last couple of weeks.

Like you think you have a good deal. and Dodgy Dave telling us he has managed to get us special status in the E.U.

Now that WAS a lie..

DulwichFox

[heartblock]

I'm not apologising. Trust me, everyone in my Mum's village she has spoken to in Lincolnshire, who voted leave did so because they don't like foreigners - and that was the ONLY reason they voted leave. She is originally from London and voted remain. So yes - racists.

I'm bored of the 'I'm not racist - but' and I'm not apologising for my opinion. Take a good old look at your motives for voting leave, it certainly was not on economic grounds.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Interestingly, we're all united in the knowledge our leaders couldn't run a bath.

Roll on tomorrow

[Loz]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a plan- it's all laid out in the EU rules and regulations etc....since we signed up to the

> EU (and Lisbon-what a con...that's when the rot set in...) we signed up to the rules about the

> exit. It will all be there- there are enough academics involved in EU law and politics that

> there will be no shortage of consultants. While all that is going on over 2 years or so, the

> Government will be able to formulate a strategy.

Have you read Article 50? It is 250 words. If you think that is in any way an exit plan, you are very, very wrong.

There is a hell of a lot to do in those two years. I would hope a strategy is already in place before triggering Article 50, else things will be even worse than the terrible mess they will be anyway.