EU Petition

[Blah Blah]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> FFS. You cannot just keep voting until you get

> your own way..

>

> Don't people get it. ?

>

> DF

But that's what happens every 4-5 years.

If a party comes along and promises another referendum (which they absolutely are free to do) there are potential 48% of all votes up for grabs. Seems like a no brainer to me, if I were a political party.

This is why marginal wins are so dangerous.

[LadyNorwood]

I've got six different email accounts - I could sign the petition with each one; just because there are over a million signatures, doesn't mean that's over a million DIFFERENT people.....

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

The numbers get checked against postcodes. Or they used to at least.

Given the results, its hardly surprising that a couple of million people have signed.

[rendelharris]

DulwichFox Wrote:

rendelharris wrote:

> > I personally, reluctantly, agree that we've had

> > the referendum and the result should be binding.

>

> > But implying that somehow having a rerun is

> going

> > to end in a dictatorship with people being

> > tortured and executed is one of the most

> risible

> > things I've read in this whole debate.

>

> FFS.. I never said that or suggested that would

> happen ..

You posted a long cut and paste about the murders that happened in Chile under a dictatorship. Then you said:

Is this what people want..This petition will go nowhere.. and God help us if it ever did..

Quite clearly implying that if the petition did go anywhere (which I don't want it to anyway) we would be heading towards that form of undemocratic state which could lead to atrocities. FFS yourself. You do have a marvellous habit of posting utter nonsense and then completely denying you ever said it, or that it didn't mean what it quite clearly does.

[Ann]

Signed although I don't feel hopeful it will change anything. Feels like a bad dream I can't wake up from.

[Blah Blah]

I think we are all in a atate of shock, including many leave voters who now realise it's not going to be what they were told it would be.

[citylover]

Brexit voters regretting it? Nope. We voted out of the EUSSR and haven't stopped celebrating since. Hello freedom and democracy! Yippee

[jaywalker]

:-)

[Jah Lush]

Not so fast - Who will have the balls to trigger Article 50?

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

[nxjen]

Good article. What I am uncertain about is can the new prime minister, whoever he or she may be, trigger the Article 50 process without a debate and vote in the Houses of Parliament. I am asking this as a separate issue to the Petition calling for a second referendum. Parliament is said to be sovereign, is a Prime Minister able to bypass their authority? Blair did not receive Parliamentary approval for the Iraqi war but a Prime Minister is able to act this way to declare war.

[heartblock]

I think you are right Jah, who in Westminster is going to push the self destruct button!

[LondonMix]

The reason they want to delay triggering Article 50 is because the two year time frame for exit put the UK at a negotiating disadvantage. Even during the campaign this was openly acknowledged.

What Leave hope to achieve is informal agreement on trade and other key issues before trigger Article 50. In total they acknowledge it will take at least 4 years to put in place the agreements Britain needs.

What the EU wants is for Article 50 to be triggered and to only deal with issues covered by article 50: citizens rights etc but NOT trade. They are proposing only negotiating on trade after the UK is out of the EU. The EU has come out and explicitly stated they don't want the UK to use the rights of their citizens living in Britain as a bargaining chip during trade negotiations and so they want them to be two completely separate discussion happening in sequence rather than in parallel.

Trigger Article 50 basically guarantees than the UK will leave the EU without a new trade agreement unless all 27 countries grant and extension or if the government adopts the Norway model.

[WorkingMummy]

Yes - I really like that comment, Jah Lush. I am no Tory, but I think the cries of Brexit voters now turning on Cameron and saying, "You never told us it would cost us this!!! It's your fault I voted that way - you weren't clear!" is a irony rich, self-diagnosis of the problem of "the populace". It is classic infantile behaviour. You demand control, make a bad decision, can't handle the consequences and so turn in anger on those who gave you control. Classic self-sabotage of a child.

That self-sabotage may be one stage of maturity ahead of my uncles and aunts whose comments on my FB page are to the effect that they are glad they voted out because the EU made us change the name of Marathons to Snickers. But only just.

And it is a far, far cry from the level of maturity actually required. Which is not for Regrexiteers to come on social media and rant about how badly misled they were. (Yes Gove is a xxxx and Farage is a tool and Boris is an opportunist. I am happy for your too-late enlightenment but the signs were all there, the warnings clearly issued, WE TOLD YOU. But you dismissed our words, as boring or as conspiracies.)

And what is required is certainly not Remain voters petitioning for a second referendum. That request is sterile. Remain already had its say and was outvoted.

It is those who are now Regrex who should be mobilising THEMSELVES like GROWN-UPs and publicly voicing: "We made a mistake. Please don't follow that "advice" we formally gave our elected representatives last Thursday." That's all you need to say. You don't need to self-flagulate. It's self-indulgent and annoying. And don't waste your moment of self-empowerment but blaming anyone else; you just infantilise yourself again if you do.

Referenda have now been proven to be the bad idea that they always were. (Imagine a referendum next month on bringing back hanging or flogging.) But if Regrex were to stand together and voice those TWO magic sentences (and nothing else, please) then we could all begin to regain our security, our public life, and our dignity in the world.

We could also start to talk about the things that really matter. Like saving the NHS, investment of our tax revenues in stimulus and preventing further bad-brain education. (None of which are EU matters, nor ever were.)

[uncleglen]

What a surprise- cashing in already

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/lib-dems-pledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election

[WorkingMummy]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> The reason they want to delay triggering Article

> 50 is because the two year time frame for exit put

> the UK at a negotiating disadvantage. Even during

> the campaign this was openly acknowledged.

>

> What Leave hope to achieve is informal agreement

> on trade and other key issues before trigger

> Article 50. In total they acknowledge it will

> take at least 4 years to put in place the

> agreements Britain needs.

>

> What the EU wants is for Article 50 to be

> triggered and to only deal with issues covered by

> article 50: citizens rights etc but NOT trade.

> They are proposing only negotiating on trade after

> the UK is out of the EU. The EU has come out and

> explicitly stated they don't want the UK to use

> the rights of their citizens living in Britain as

> a bargaining chip during trade negotiations and so

> they want them to be two completely separate

> discussion happening in sequence rather than in

> parallel.

>

> Trigger Article 50 basically guarantees than the

> UK will leave the EU without a new trade agreement

> unless all 27 countries grant and extension or if

> the government adopts the Norway model.

Yes but LM what that doesn't factor in (but BJ knows and is just sick about), is that my Auntie Masie and Uncle Stan did not vote for a Norway style settlement. Which means no lower immigration, less control over borders, we enter Schengen, Calais camps move to Dover, no veto on future EU expansion, goodbye Maggie rebate on contributions. They really, really wanted imaginary out out (so we magically carry on with exactly the same economy outside of the EU with no immigration) having no idea what real out-out meant. They heard Gove say, "Norway rocks and it is out!" But that was of course a huge deception by Leave and my dear Aunt and Uncle refused to listen to my sisters and I when we tried to explain this. They couldn't answer any of our points to them. They just started to talk about the German bombing of Coventary and what chocolate bars and bathroom cleaner used to called in 1973. I had exactly the same conversations on this forum (except people here just kept reverting to Control Control while steadfastly refusing to get specific about the chocolate bar naming EU changes they disliked).

Boris has no mandate to make us Norway. There is no mandate for any 1) achievable and 2) desirable alternative to our current position.

[uncleglen]

I didn't see the English kicking up after the 2005 General Election( see the map)..should have been a stark warning since the only reason Labour got in was because of Scotland and Wales

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2005

[Louisa]

What happens if article 50 is not invoked until a Conservative Party leadership contest has been decided? Will this damage our negotiating hand? Can the EU force article 50 and the ticking clock upon us without us notifying them?

I do not have much time for David Cameron, but I do think deep down he had the best interests of the country at heart, unlike some of those on the other side who now appear to be waking up to the realities of brexit.

Louisa.

[Louisa]

Also I agree with your sentiments above WM. I think Boris has been dealt a hammer blow by Cameron on this one. He now is stuck between a rock and a hard place and has zero room for manoeuvre. He can't go for Norway style settlement without pissing off everyone who voted for brexit, including me, who wanted the freedom of movement curbs. Much the same as Michael Hestletine ousting Thatcher in 1990, the assassin won't necessarily get the prize they had been hoping for.

Louisa.

[JoeLeg]

They can't force Article 50 on us, and it looks to me like Merkel at least is trying to slow it down. I strongly believe nothing will happen until the new PM is in place. Will it damage us? Who knows? I think Germany wants to come to a reasonable agreement, but it all needs to be agreed on by every one else. Will Hungary force concessions on us? Will Romania? Will we find ourselves railroaded by the process into something worse than we had? I hope not, and as I say, I think Germany wants to do this nicely, but that all presupposes we go down the Article 50 route in the first place.

Cameron has pulled off a master stroke, by dumping this into the lap of his successor. Those who voted Leave did so under the clear impression that Article 50 would follow. But as events are showing, that brings more problems than people were willing to discuss.

[Jules-and-Boo]

While EU is reacting by demanding an immediate exit, it's not doing itself any favours either, to rush. Other EU countries are dissatisfied who are more wholly involved in EU than UK ever was.

What is required are mature politics, not knee jerk reactions. UK will start negotiations but it needs to stabilise itself. There is turmoil of course - all kinds of activity in the Labour Party overnight and quiet on the Tory front (disappointed but hardly surprised by Cameron's resignation).

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Deleted as just realised someone else had posted this!

[red devil]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> Not so fast - Who will have the balls to trigger

> Article 50?

That might explain why on referendum night before results even came in, a group of Tory Brexiters were asking Cameron to stay on as PM if Brexit won, for so called 'stability'. As well as pulling out of the EU, a leave vote also means the break up of the Union. What Tory (don't forget it's officially the Conservative and Unionist Party) wants that on their hands as well?...

[red devil]

And on the subject of Scotland, just breaking...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> What happens if article 50 is not invoked until a Conservative Party leadership contest has been

> decided? Will this damage our negotiating hand? Can the EU force article 50 and the ticking clock

> upon us without us notifying them?

There is currently no mechanism for the UK to be thrown out of Europe. Only the country itself can trigger article 50.

There is a reasonable theory that the article 50 button may never be pressed. I think Gove is the biggest danger. I'm not sure Boris really wants to press it and Theresa May will hold off for as long as she can.

God only knows what is going on in Corbyn's head.

[LondonMix]

No-- the EU cannot force article 50 to be triggered. However, the EU may simply refuse the negotiate informally as Boris has suggested ahead of article 50 being triggered. It might end up as an impasse. In that stand-off I believe the EU has the upper hand but only time will tell. Things will be much clearer by the end of the week after the EU summit on Wednesday (the first without the UK).

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What happens if article 50 is not invoked until a

> Conservative Party leadership contest has been

> decided? Will this damage our negotiating hand?

> Can the EU force article 50 and the ticking clock

> upon us without us notifying them?

>

> I do not have much time for David Cameron, but I

> do think deep down he had the best interests of

> the country at heart, unlike some of those on the

> other side who now appear to be waking up to the

> realities of brexit.

>

> Louisa.