Who'd be worse as PM - Boris or Gove?

[Jenny1]

Just interested what people think.

They're so different in so many ways aren't they? But perhaps equal in their havoc-wreaking capabilities.

[uncleglen]

I think that if Michael Gove became PM, there would be endless teachers' strikes....or they would start acting up like southern Rail staff, just to get back at him.....(I don't know what for because in my establishment all the real bs is generated by senior management....)

Boris is lovely, but he hasn't really been in a position to wreak proper havoc imvho

[right-clicking]

Either would, being part of a pair of "The Devils Bollox"

[Burbage]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just interested what people think.

You're forgetting Theresa May (not to mention Iain Duncan Smith, Sajid Javid, Priti Patel, Jeremy Hunt and Jacob Rees-Mogg).

There are many ways in which a newly-independent Britain might forge a new future for itself. But, in the light of the long debate we've just had, and given the principles of democratic representation, there's clearly a mandate for a more howlingly unhinged approach than either Boris or Govey could deliver.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Gove would be worse. Utterly charmless and in a way the embodiment of the more machine-like aspects of the EU system he wanted to leave. And his wife would be even more annoying than Cherie Blair.

Boris is admittedly flawed and shows poor judgement at times but he has warmth and does connect with people.

Actually I'm rather hoping his father will run for something rather than commenting from the sidelines.

[LondonMix]

Gove is strident but appears to have some genuine conviction. Boris is charming but completely ruthless and unprincipled. I think Boris would be a much more dangerous choice.

[WorkingMummy]

I see it the exact opposite way. I see Boris as basically an opportunist and bit a of a clown, but not an actual ideological threat. Whereas Gove, I find genuinely frightening in his political ideology.

But both of them would be awful. And so bad for what is now (appallingly) the biggest job the government of this country (which really does have far bigger things it should be worrying about) has to tackle: negotiating clause 50 divorce, followed by a hopeful re-entry as a trading partner of the EU (assuming ALL other EU nations ratify that deal). The worst people to do that are the people who were gunning to go. Imagine how the talks would go! We need someone who took a credible remain line to be PM, who can at least look Merkel in the eye and truthfully say that this is breaking his/her heart and please lets be kind!

[WorkingMummy]

And by frightening political ideology I mean: [sourced from Wiki.]

On the NHS:

"Gove is one of several Conservative MPs who co-authored 'Direct Democracy: An Agenda for a New Model Party' (2005). The book says the NHS "fails to meet public expectations" and calls for it to be dismantled and replaced with personal health accounts."

On Foreign Policy:

"The Financial Times describes Gove as having "strong neoconservative convictions". He proposed that the invasion of Iraq would bring peace and democracy both to Iraq and the wider Middle East. In December 2008, he wrote that declarations of either victory or defeat in Iraq in 2003 were premature, and that the liberation of Iraq was a foreign policy success.

In 'Michael Gove: Triumph of freedom over evil, he wrote, "The liberation of Iraq has actually been that rarest of things ? a proper British foreign policy success." .... Tariq Ali once recalled how, at the time of the Iraq War, he "debat[ed] the ghastly Gove on television [... and found him] worse than most Bush apologists in the United States."

"While deeply critical of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, Gove believes that "there have also been more benign empires, and in that I would include, almost pre-eminently, the British...""

Views on WW1:

"In a controversial article about the First World War centenary in January 2014,[123] Gove attacked academic and television interpretations of World War I as "left-wing versions of the past designed to belittle Britain and its leaders.""

Oh, and he proposed a new Royal Yacht - during austerity - in 2012.

The list goes on and on.

In short, his lack of charm is the least of our worries.

[LondonMix]

I know what you mean Working Mummy.

I see Boris as someone who would do something he genuinely believed would be bad for the country if it would keep him in power. Gove, on the other hand is uncompromising ideologue but I don't think he would intentionally do harm (though unintentionally for sure).

Both are bad but Boris to me is scary. Someone driven only by power with no ideological framework is capable of almost anything. I don't know where his moral compass lies. Gove has a different belief system to me and is definitely a nationalist. However, I believe there are lines he would not cross and things he would not do.

[WorkingMummy]

But read any unbiased record of Gove's positions over the years, on the NHS, education, foreign policy, Imperialism. I am pretty sure we do know where his moral compass lies. And it somewhere much more ugly than Boris's.

Not that i want to choose between to two.

Good god this feels like an alternative universe i am very much wishing was not real.

[heartblock]

It's all too awful - Gove is repulsive and Boris a careerist man-child.....

[hellosailor]

No-one would be worse than Gove

[malumbu]

I'd prefer Trump. Yes things are that bad.

Time to get behind Jessa (Corbyn not Clarkson)

[Seabag]

I'm looking toward Rees Mogg

His suits and 'hipster politico' vibe is on-point

[????]

Hopefully May.

Corbyn you must be joking Malambu - after his virtual non-show in the referendum the bloke is an useless old tosser

[Louisa]

I quite liked that Scottish woman who I think heads the Tories north of the border. She seemed to have charisma for sure.

Louisa.

[????]

She's not an MP though

[uncleglen]

His own party have had a vote of no Confidence in Corbyn so....

Theresa May has been totally 'castrated' by the EU to date, so you never know- she is tenacious though.

[malumbu]

How about a thread entitled who'd be best as the next PM. Is Rees Mogg the chap who went out with a Cheeky Girl. If so he'd get my vote.

And Teresa May, well there is a good song there. Teresa May, you should have stayed at home yesterday.

We are the cheeky girls...

Gotta get some joy....

[Loz]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How about a thread entitled who'd be best as the next PM. Is Rees Mogg the chap who went out with

> a Cheeky Girl. If so he'd get my vote.

No, that was the Lib Dem - Lembit Opik.

[Jenny1]

Burbage Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> there's clearly a mandate for a

> more howlingly unhinged approach than either Boris

> or Govey could deliver.

I'm sure you're right. But I suspect the Conservatives don't have anyone more howlingly unhinged, do they? It's important to confess however that my knowledge of MPs is not exhaustive, so there may well be someone who fits the bill very nicely.

[Jenny1]

I was intrigued by one Boris supporter's defence of Mr J on the Today Programme this morning. When the accusation was put to him that Boris told lies, Andrew Gimson (author of 'Boris: The Rise of Boris Johnson') said 'It's democracy. The people want to be lied to'.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I honestly don't care. Both have already caused untold amounts of damage to the UK. Boris is probably the most amoral of the two (at least Gove seems to believe in something, even if it does seem to be 'creative distruction'). Let's face it, it's a poisoned chalice anyway. Who'd want to inherit this mess.

[Louisa]

It must be the first time in history that both main political parties are in ruins over pressing the self destruct button, leaving the SNP to take full advantage of the situation. Very sad.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

Agreed Louisa. Both main parties are spilt to the core, and both are increasingly endorsing leadership that is moving away from the centre ground. But we've seen this historically many times. It is the final death throws of neoliberal free market capitalism on this occasion. It will be replaced by something esle that will bring stability eventually, but we are all set for a whole heap of pain before we get there. I was just trying to think today when the last period like this might have been. Mid to late 70's perhaps? The death throws of Socialism? Although I'm not sure the people themselves were so split then.