Stunned

[WorkingMummy]

A hot meal elsewhere??? Louisa, hold firm to your beliefs of course by all means. But some empathy for people facing huge personal uncertainty and anguish, and for people genuinely grieving the enforced loss of our membership by a very narrow margin, from Leave, would feel so good.

The European family is a public and a personal idea which I support on so many levels. Today is a day of enormous sadness and confusion to those of us with multi national, European families.

Leave does mean leave, Louisa. Just like divorce means divorce. Read clause 50. We say go. The EU decides the terms of our exit by a majority vote. We have two years to talk terms but any member state can veto any request by us for more time to agree our exit. Any new deal negotiated has to be reached separately. There is no provision for remarriage on within clause 50. All existing EU states get a right of VETO over any request to rejoin the EEA, let alone as to the terms.

I can't help but think that those who are so cavalier about our future now must have very little personal at stake in this awful thing we now face.

[Louisa]

WorkingMummy of course I have empathy for you and others who have/will suffer as a result of this decision. It was never going to be easy, and as I have conceded multiple times on this forum, we have a tough few years ahead for everyone and we cannot underestimate the road ahead. I can only imagine it is devestating for those directly affected, but it's early days and we cannot be sure what will happen so do not lose hope.

The EU may well try and make brexit difficult, it may have to prevent a growing backlash in other countries tempted by the jump ship mentality, who knows? Either way, we have to make this work.

In terms of some people being cavalier, I think you perhaps misinterpret the absolute feeling of isolation and resentment in the poorest regions of England. Stakeholders in this EU project, many of whom have qualified for regional donations to support deprived communities. They have a great deal of personal attachment to this vote, some are below the poverty line and have desperately been waiting for this day to finally have a voice. So as much as I respect and appreciate your predicament, don't underestimate or dismiss the similar position others have been in for some years now.

Louisa.

[midivydale]

I am so sorry working mummy, really really sorry and thank you to you both for encouraging words.

I just feel so sad for the future of our children. That fear and hatred won today.

I am sad that after 20 years here, for most of which I have paid an enormous amount of tax, I did not get a say in the referendum. I had no voice.

I believe in Europe

[LondonMix]

Louisa-- I don't want to get into a debate about the E.U. You asked why and I told you. The UK is out now so the merits of the EU are now irrelevant for this country. The new leadership is tasked with navigating the country through this extreme period of uncertainty as best they can.

WorkingMummy-- not being together makes things more complicated for your children. I understand your feeling of loss. My husband is part Irish and is planning to apply for an Irish passport to keep some link to the EU

[WorkingMummy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> WorkingMummy of course I have empathy for you and

> others who have/will suffer as a result of this

> decision. It was never going to be easy, and as I

> have conceded multiple times on this forum, we

> have a tough few years ahead for everyone and we

> cannot underestimate the road ahead. I can only

> imagine it is devestating for those directly

> affected, but it's early days and we cannot be

> sure what will happen so do not lose hope.

>

> The EU may well try and make brexit difficult, it

> may have to prevent a growing backlash in other

> countries tempted by the jump ship mentality, who

> knows? Either way, we have to make this work.

>

> In terms of some people being cavalier, I think

> you perhaps misinterpret the absolute feeling of

> isolation and resentment in the poorest regions of

> England. Stakeholders in this EU project, many of

> whom have qualified for regional donations to

> support deprived communities. They have a great

> deal of personal attachment to this vote, some are

> below the poverty line and have desperately been

> waiting for this day to finally have a voice. So

> as much as I respect and appreciate your

> predicament, don't underestimate or dismiss the

> similar position others have been in for some

> years now.

>

> Louisa.

No. As I said earlier in this very thread, I appreciate very well that my own sense of dislocation and isolation of course is what many leave voters have been feeling about "their" country for years. And now I feel it too: that is the pain of divorce for you.

But I am not currently on a forum holding my jubilation about my "hot meal" up in the face of their grief. Or talking about their accute anguish as price they must pay for my dream.

I empathise with their pain but do not expect them to swallow it for my or my family's comfort. In fact I feel awful today because I have no belief that divorce from the EU or exclusion of immigrants or supposed "control" of immigration is going to make them any richer or better served. I believe that they have cut off our nose to spite our face.

Midivydale, your point about how many long standing members of our London community could not vote because of the extraordinarily discriminatory exclusion of resident EU citizens is a very powerful one.

[uncleglen]

The people in the North would have seen the south of England and London as somewhere to aspire to go and live and work, but not after it was flooded with migrants . For example, about 16% of Scots are living in GB but outside of Scotland.

Interestingly, that fewer Scots are going to uni because the places are taken up by Europeans attracted by the free fees

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11428014/Scots-losing-out-on-university-places-to-EU-students.html

this is the direct effect of the EU law on young people....

Goodbye and good riddance to the bloody interference, and if Sturgeon wants to stay with it, well...

[WorkingMummy]

Just so depressed to read that last post alone.

[malumbu]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> WorkingMummy of course I have empathy for you and

> others who have/will suffer as a result of this

> decision. It was never going to be easy, and as I

> have conceded multiple times on this forum, we

> have a tough few years ahead for everyone and we

> cannot underestimate the road ahead. I can only

> imagine it is devestating for those directly

> affected, but it's early days and we cannot be

> sure what will happen so do not lose hope.

>

> The EU may well try and make brexit difficult, it

> may have to prevent a growing backlash in other

> countries tempted by the jump ship mentality, who

> knows? Either way, we have to make this work.

>

> In terms of some people being cavalier, I think

> you perhaps misinterpret the absolute feeling of

> isolation and resentment in the poorest regions of

> England. Stakeholders in this EU project, many of

> whom have qualified for regional donations to

> support deprived communities. They have a great

> deal of personal attachment to this vote, some are

> below the poverty line and have desperately been

> waiting for this day to finally have a voice. So

> as much as I respect and appreciate your

> predicament, don't underestimate or dismiss the

> similar position others have been in for some

> years now.

>

> Louisa.

Can't you just have your own thread Louisa "over the moon that we are leaving the EU" and then your friends can join you. You can then leave this discussion to the majority of us who just want to figure out how it could have all gone wrong, and how on earth we can move on.

Now I am commpletely flipped off but fortunately do have some other mattes to focus on in my life, even through this surreal fugg. I'd love to ask if you have any interests but that would be churlish and invite a reply. So why not set up that separate thread I am suggsting and I promise not to even look at it or I will eat Paddy Ashdown's hat it I react otherwise.

[Louisa]

Edited because on reflection it was inappropriate considering thread title and consequences for thread author.

Louisa.

[WorkingMummy]

Lovely. All so lovely.

[Louisa]

"Outgoing PM David Cameron is under pressure to speed up "divorce" talks with the EU, as Brussels says it wants to start exit negotiations immediately.

European Commission President Jean Claude Juncker said it was "not an amicable divorce, but it was not exactly a tight love affair anyway".

Taken from a BBC News article. Mr Juncker choosing to isolate rather than embrace the 48.1% of the British electorate who opted for remain. And people think this horrid man has any respect for democracy? Think again.

Louisa.

[WorkingMummy]

Oh for fussake.

He is not a horrid man disrespecting the 48%. What are saying? That UK should be treated as ambivalent and another referendum held?

He has been handed a decision by the UK voters and he is now acting in the interests of HIS constituency which is now everybody else and not us. Stability demands swiftness from the EUs point of view. It is a divorce. That is what Clause 50 exit is. It is not amicable because half of us don't want it and the EU certainly doesn't want it. It was not a close love marriage anyway because we opted out of Schengen, got a massive rebate on our contributions each year and never joined the Euro. Give the guy a break - every word he says is true. And he is doing what has to be done.

Stop lecturing people on respecting democracy (which, btw I do! It does not mean I have to change my mind that this decision is idiotic!!) and blaming the EU for doing what it must now do.

See, Brexit is so badly conceived, so ill planned, so rudderless, it is perfectly possible to vote for it, shout about it, clap and cheer, (while, you know, people who it affects immediately weep) and then when it all goes wrong blame everyone else either for not being tough enough negotiators or (in the case of the EU) for not donating us good enough terms.

[Blah Blah]

There is no winner from this. A 3.8% difference between in and out means just one thing - that the UK is split down the middle, just like both the Tory and Labour parties are. These kinds of divisions are what lead to civil war. Equally at loggerheads are young and old.

Johnson has used the referendum to get the prize he really wants, which is to be PM. He and others looked decidedly sheepish today as it dawned on them that they are never going to be able to deliver the promises they made. They've sold people a pack of lies, and those who fell for them, are going to learn the hard way, the consequences.

I predict that the new Tory leadership will drag out EU exit for as long as they can, in the hope the EU gives the UK some amazing concessionary arrangement. A complete exit with no deal will see the break up of the UK. It's not just Scotland, it's Northern Ireland too. Boris has never been for a full exit. The only person who is for a full exit is the man who isn't even an MP. Farage will have no say in how Brexit evolves.

Had the result been definitive one way or the other, then it would be different. But just as with the Scottish Independence Referendum, narrow margins leave the door open for another challenge.

[moondancer]

WM and BB impressive, articulate eloquent posts with passion.

[kate h]

Yes, WM and BB - brilliant, well-argued posts. Such a cruel and awful irony that the demographic groups which have won this election for Boris (ie disenfranchised white voters in Lincolnshire and the North East etc) are the same demographic groups the Tory party has done so little to serve.

I WANT TO PROTEST!!!! Can't we organise one? A big one?

[Louisa]

Blah, the margins are narrow I agree, but the turnout was impressive overall and this is the nature of a referendum. The divide between young and old, poor and wealthy, north are south are profound and I make no bones about that. But it is democracy in action, this government gave us the option to decide on this and narrowly, on a high turnout we did so. We now have to work with this decision, it's imperative that we do. The temporary financial turbulence was predicated by most, but invariably it will settle down and the EU are already wanting to start negotiations with us. I am positive we can reach a compromise to keep both sides of the argument happy.

Boris Johnson and his political future was always going to play a part in this decision, and I do not think we should be giving him and his friends the agenda now. It's about the UK and our future, not one or two passing politicians. Cameron shouldn't have resigned so early, and he should be leading the way not now flouncing away like a spoilt child. I would personally be rather sceptical about the bravado from all sides on this and just be patient and wait for the dust to settle. Angela Merkal is st heart a pragmatic politician who will co-operate with us in time, and I think we need a strong negotiating hand in Brussels to talk to these people once the shock factor has retreated somewhat.

All the long term signs are that we will reach an agreement which will continue to involve us remaining in the single market with the acceptance of freedom of movement, and I think most people have been thinking that for sometime.

Louisa.

[WorkingMummy]

Louisa, staying in the single market and accepting free movement of persons???? Then what the hell is this all about? That is what we already HAD. But we had it WITH a Schengen opt out WITH a fiscal opt-out and WITH a security opt out and WITH a 30% rebate. And now all other EU states have a VETO, not a negotiating position, not a strong hand, not a lever, an absolute VETO on our presence in the EEA and can use that to move us out of all the concessions we fought for over 30 years.

You, Louisa, you and 17 million others just gave Romania - to name but one - the same right to VETO our joining (unless we accept Schengen, pay fair share, support Euro bail outs) that we used against the other EU states to ensure our already very special, unique member status. How do you think we got all those concessions for all these years? By using our frogging veto. Which you just GAVE AWAY.

I have no words for the imbecility of this rudderless, goal-less, prejudice based movement that yelled for control and now shouts for the status bloody quo!!!!!

All this pain, and anguish and division. Is for NOTHING that is good.

[midivydale]

Hear hear working mummy. It is a tragedy that voters decided to educate themselves and what their votes meant after their vote had been casted. Nothing but a tragedy.

[WorkingMummy]

Midivydale -solidarity.

I have just started a thread on citizenship. I feel awful even having to ask it of you but would you consider it (please please please don't all leave!) and do you know how hard/easy it is?

[uncleglen]

My daughter asked her office pals which they were voting. One of them, nearing retirement said IN because he wanted to preserve the value of his house. The other a young chap, also IN, because he is going abroad next week and wants to get more Euros....so all you people who are trying to paint the OUTies as morons and the like, had better look at yourselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36561084

Interestingly, the amount we get back for Agriculture and Fisheries is almost the same as the amount (around ?3100m p.a.) that we give them to maintain the whole EU machine p.a.

[DulwichFox]

I travelled to France... Switzerland.. Italy... Austria ... Holland... Germany East/West ..

All before the E.E.C. / E.U. existed..

There is no indication that myself or anyone else from the UK will face any restrictions after leaving.

There will be a need to show ones Passport and some security checks but with the current threat

of terrorism across Europe, that's hardly a bad thing.

The Paris tragedies were thought to of been possible due to no travel restrictions between Belgium and France.

DulwichFox

[heartblock]

Dear working mummy and midivydale, absolutely agree. People voted out with little or no understanding of the reality about how the EU and the EEA works and the impact of a leave vote. There is a very good reason we put difficult decisions in the hands of experts.

If I have heart disease I would listen and take advice from a cardiologist, not a lawyer or even a dermatologist

If I had cancer I would listen and take advice from an oncologist, not an ENT surgeon or a chiropodist

If was was concerned about the EU I would listen and take advice from financial and political experts, not Farage.

This stupid vote is like a patient with insulin controlled diabetes sticking two fingers up at an occasionally uncomfortable and annoying regular treatment as recommended by the medical expert and trusting the faith healing lies of some mad American style 'healer'.

[jaywalker]

Louisa, I think you underestimate two things. First, the palpable anger of our European allies (and allies in Europe have always been indispensable for our security). Thus the Polish representative in Brussels on TV last night was ENRAGED by the vote, rightly reminding his interviewer of his family's and his country's long history of helping and fighting for us. There are something like 1m Poles in the UK - you can understand his point. Your vote means they will be forced to go home. You think that what is left of the UK will be given a generous negotiation! Further, the fear of contagion - the UK must be presented as an example of the consequences of leaving to those who would like to follow to preserve what is left of the integrity of Europe.

Second, the anger (and it is no exaggeration, sense of mourning) of the great majority of people in London (and in other cosmopolitan areas) who will now have to suffer the appalling consequences of atavistic Ruritania-ism (see Gellner's frightening book Nations and Nationalism on this). The general resentiment (sic) of many of those who voted to leave (which for the most part was against adverse conditions that membership of the EU ameliorated not made worse) was canalised into an fantasy of 'getting one's country back'. When the protection of the EU is gone and the adversity greatly increases (in a broken UK) the aggressivity of that vote will turn inwards in full scale reactionary force. We saw enough evidence of that potential in the referendum campaign itself. Meanwhile, thousands of job cuts were announced for London IN ONE DAY yesterday. There are, conservatively, twenty EU nationals working on building works just in my street at the moment - we just said go home to them too - not to mention the many hundreds of EU citizens who live and work in the lively polyglot and peaceful general area in which we have the privilege to live.

[midivydale]

I am heartbroken.When i got here the UK was a warm and welcoming country and I was i was made to feel at home.

It didn't feel like a big move with my EU passport, no bigger than I imagine it would feel like for someone from Yorkshire to move to London. I had the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. and i have felt very much as part of society.

This has all now changed. I first felt excluded that despite the impact the outcome of the referendum would have on my British child's future, I had no say at all. Despite having paid ALOT of tax, more than most people in fact, for over 15 years.

Fair enough though, I'm not British after all.

After the leave vote, I dont feel welcome at all. Despite paying more tax than most people, I'm being reminded that I should be grateful that I'm allowed to live here, I should be grateful that I get to use the nhs. (I am a huge fan of the nhs. I am grateful, very much so, but I refuse to be told I should know my place). I have loved this country since I was a child. I have paid taxes, volunteered and supported all the local British communities i have ever lived in.

I'm being told that I'm ridiculous to worry about this as no one will get thrown out of the country. But having to even think about this after having felt as very much a part of society for two decades is unsettling and disturbing. We celebrate the Quees birthday, cheer for Murray and I duly put on my England shirt for football. I watch East Enders, hell I even eat a fry up!

The feeling is very difficult to explain, the feeling of all of a sudden having been demoted.

My 4yr old, who is Brittish asked me this morning "why people doesnt want his mummy to live in London?"

It is a tragedy, and do not tell me not to take it personally

[rendelharris]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All the long term signs are that we will reach an

> agreement which will continue to involve us

> remaining in the single market with the acceptance

> of freedom of movement, and I think most people

> have been thinking that for sometime.

So the EU leaders who are currently calling for us to hurry up and get out are going to be so charmed by Boris and his minions that they're going to turn round and say never mind, have all the benefits of being in the EU without any of the responsibilities or paying for it? A little optimistic, don't you think? What are these "long term signs" of which you speak?